A Critique for Monastics

[Kidet0]

I've noticed many monks who do not embody the character traits usually described/implied in the suttas i.e. A solemn disposition, pensive, quiet, inclined towards physical solitude, soft-spoken, a lowered gaze, aloof, walking, sitting, and standing gracefully, etc.

From time to time I observe monks who are boisterous, humorous, almost as though cracking jokes, witty, laughing often, engaged in missionary activities and travel, riding luxurious vehicles, sitting in comfy plush furniture, social media, iPhone, etc etc.

What is your take on that? Is it just their personality (probably from their lay life) manifesting? Am I having unrealistic expectations of monks? I always have the idea that monastics are meant to practice asceticism for the purpose of attaining Nibbāna in the life they have ordained. Or what is the purpose of going forth and wearing the ochre robes (a.k.a the flag of the arahants) if not to try and escape samsara ASAP?

Of course monastics have to interact with laypeople for various reasons but some monastics appear to still be "in the world". Btw I'm a layman and I fear bad karma for posing this criticism.

Any thoughts?

[ssasny]

I'm curious if you could speak a bit about the Buddhist scene in Africa, as I see you are in Kenya.
Are there many monks there? Where are they mostly based?
I've heard about a Theravadin community in Uganda, but never in Kenya.

Thanks

[Kidet0]

I'm curious if you could speak a bit about the Buddhist scene in Africa, as I see you are in Kenya.
Are there many monks there? Where are they mostly based?
I've heard about a Theravadin community in Uganda, but never in Kenya.

Thanks

I'm Kenyan by nationality and African by descent. There isn't a single Kenyan monk that I know of. The only monks I've met here are Bhante Wimala (Sri Lankan), head of the Nairobi Buddhist Temple (NBT), and one other venerable (also Sri Lankan) who deputized him. Bhante Wimala has represented Kenya at many Buddhist conventions. The NBT is supported by Sri Lankan devotees in Kenya so there isn't really a Kenyan "flavor" of the Sangha if you know what I mean. There is a steadily growing community of Goenka Vipassana though. The retreats are very popular.

I've been to the Uganda Buddhist Centre which is led by Bhante Buddharakkhita. Stayed and volunteered there for a few weeks. The place is not a typical monastery setting where one can go for training. However, they're planning to start holding retreats. Most devotees there are from Uganda's Thai and Sri Lankan communities so I didn't get to see a Ugandan Buddhist scene. The locals are yet to pick up the culture of Buddhism. I don't know about the rest of Africa as I've never been anywhere else.

The criticism above is purely based on what I see online.

[ssasny]

Thank you very much for your answer.

It's nice to hear that Dhamma is being practiced and, to a certain extent, growing in popularity.
I certainly hope all the monastics there have their heart in the right place, and can continue to both instruct and inspire.

Certainly some, if not many, fall short of the mark, but striving against the often overwhelming obstacles of samsara is a beautiful pursuit.

[JamesTheGiant]

There are many different ways to be a bhikkhu. Not all need to be like those described in the suttas.
As long as someone follows the 8-path and the teachings of the Buddha.
Sure the "perfect" enlightened monks are described as being like you say, but it's not necessary to be like that to get enlightened.

[Dhamma Chameleon]

Idle chatter and making fun of things fall short of right speech, but joyfulness is an enlightenment factor. Laughter and happiness can also come from that wholesome place.

[TRobinson465]

Everybody is on at a different level. both monastics and laypeople. most monastics today cannot live up to the arahants of the Buddha's time, and thats expected. There are indeed bad monks out there, outright charlatans in fact, but i dont consider any monk who doesnt meet the standards of practice found in the ancient texts to be one of them. As long as they have faith in the triple gem, and make an earnest effort to practice (sometimes with varying degrees of success), and aren't doing anything downright unethical, i consider them worthy of respect. Monks that are true charlatans who have no regard for the Dhamma, act as laypeople in robes and basically steal almsfood from the laity, make up probably not even 5% of the monastic population

[BKh]

Let me just mention that I saw some questionable practices while I was there.

I'd like to ask you to be very careful about posting things like that on line. Obviously I have no idea what you saw. But I do know that people not trained well in Vinaya can very easily think something is an offense when it is not. Even a Vinaya expert can't always know just by sight. This is why the Buddha gave us a very skillful way of investigating things. When you throw out a statement like that there is no way to investigate it and so it just gives them a bad reputation.

But as I said, I don't know what you saw and I don't want to claim that it wasn't a bad thing. Just that none of us can know. Even posting details may not help since you won't know all the information about a situation.

There are many different ways to be a bhikkhu. Not all need to be like those described in the suttas.

It's also good to remember that it the job of the suttas to inspire us through teaching about the best behaviour possible. Read the Vinaya and you will learn about the whole range of behaviour that was common in the time of the Buddha.

But even more importantly, as Buddhists we must believe that it is possible for people to improve their behaviour through the training. Being an ariya is not a requirement for ordination. It's the goal. Of course everyone can decide who they like to associate with. But having an unrealistic expectation of monastics isn't good for anyone. Not lay people or monastics.

[Kidet0]

I'd like to ask you to be very careful about posting things like that on line. Obviously I have no idea what you saw. But I do know that people not trained well in Vinaya can very easily think something is an offense when it is not. Even a Vinaya expert can't always know just by sight. This is why the Buddha gave us a very skillful way of investigating things. When you throw out a statement like that there is no way to investigate it and so it just gives them a bad reputation.

But as I said, I don't know what you saw and I don't want to claim that it wasn't a bad thing. Just that none of us can know. Even posting details may not help since you won't know all the information about a situation.

I agree. It was inappropriate for me to pass judgment like that.

[BKh]

And just to be clear: monastics do bad things sometimes. I'm not trying to say that they don't. It's just that it's not always easy to judge without investigating. Even monastics can be confused about all the factors for an offense. But especially lay people may not be aware of exceptions to rules or when different communities have different interpretations of things.

[SarathW]

The way I see it is that Buddhist monks are not much different from Buddhist laypeople.
Very hard to find a Buddhist layperson strictly observing the five precepts let alone eight.
However, lay Buddhists who break five precepts expect the monks to observe the 227 rules.

If you read Broken Buddha you can see how widespread the questionable behavior of monks is.

Is this unfair?

Perhaps not, because monks are dependent on lay people.
When we pay for something we expect a good product.

It is important to note that development as a monk is also gradual.
Some are novices and others are fully ordained.

[BKh]

When we pay for something we expect a good product.

Is this really how you see your relationship with the Sangha? Honest question.

[SarathW]

When we pay for something we expect a good product.

Is this really how you see your relationship with the Sangha? Honest question.

Didn't Buddha say that monks have an obligation when they are living with alms food?
Don't lay, people, expect something when they look after monks?
Will you give alms food to a monk if you know that monk is breaking the five precepts?

[asahi]

When we pay for something we expect a good product.

Is this really how you see your relationship with the Sangha? Honest question.

Didn't Buddha say that monks have an obligation when they are living with alms food?
Don't lay, people, expect something when they look after monks?
Will you give alms food to a monk if you know that monk is breaking the five precepts?

It is common to have expectation that monks should practice well otherwise who wants to support them . It will be hard to have respect with indisciplined and arrogant one . And many monastics has a kind of thinking a Level Higher than lay people usually . Similar to Buddha's times Brahmin priest .

[Bhikkhu Ariyananda]

I did like to give some food for thought..

13 questions posed to Ledi Sayadaw and his answers.

A Manual of Dhamma, please download the ebook

http://www.aimwell.org/ledi.html

With Metta
Bhikkhu Ariyananda