Pulsar wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 1:32 pm
...
What does the formless mind contact, if there is no form to contact?
With love
mjaviem replied
You tell me, I already explained I'm confused. What kind of contacts are there in arupa realms?
I am not surprised that you are confused, since many buddhists when they hear the term
"formless'" immediately think of Arupa realms. But this idea of Arupa realms that prevailed before Buddha, had nothing to do with Buddha's foundational teaching, of Dependent Origination.
Words used carelessly can create havoc in the Founder's teaching. Teachings that Buddha never dreamt of have been imported into the canon, thanks to some compilers, who were influenced by latter day Abhidhamma.
Formless to Buddha was when when you subtract FORM/Rupa from the equation
Nama-rupa---->consciousness, as taught in Kalaha Vivada.
- Form in this context means the images that arise in the mind due to eye consciousness, a sound that arise in the mind due to ear consciousness etc, things previously seen, or heard.
Forms arise in the mind due to craving. Arahants have no craving, therefore things seen in the past, or heard leave no such imprints in their underlying consciousness. They have purified their underlying consciousness, is one way of expressing it.
My dearest mjaviem: Tell me what happens when you think of your daughter or wife who are not in your presence now. Can't you picture them in your mind? In fact Buddha has taught that mind can paint pictures. Mind or consciousness of the puthujjana is a magician (foam sutta).
So when the images appear in your mind due to what is craved for (recollection), your mind names them (Nama-rupa) and that
denomination (either my wife or my daughter) gives rise to a consciousness related to the labelling.
If that consciousness relates to a sadness such as "I miss them" then you pursue it ....a feeling arisen giving rise to intention and so forth.
This is best explained in Ditthi Samyutta.
Do you get my drift? Rupa of Nama-rupa of Dependent origination taught by Buddha is an image in the mind that gets labelled (named).
However rupa of Nama-rupa according to Abhidhamma is the physical object (your wife) that gets named.
Pulsar is following Buddha's teaching, and can only offer answers based on Tathagata's teaching.
Are you with me so far? Please ask again if it is not clear.
Be careful when you read the canon, some suttas are infused by the teachings of Abhidhamma. Eventually when I discuss SN 4.11 perhaps these thoughts will become clearer to you.
Good night! not sure where you are, perhaps it a good morning to you!
With love