Thoughts as not self

[befriend]

How do you let thoughts not affect you if a person thinks a good thought they will feel good if they think a bad thought they will feel bad, It takes effort but I notice when A bad thought pops up if I relax and pay gentle attention to it I see it as not self and don't identify with it I can see it as anicca Dukkha Anatta. I think nibbana is not being affected or afflicted by any experience. I've been meditating doing relaxed choiceless awareness and when I have an emotion like worry come up I felt like I was space or my experience was of one of spacious awareness rather than worry the worry didn't dominate my being because there was so much space there. I'd like to not identify with thoughts but they stick to the heart unless I relax an be aware but this takes almost too much effort.

[befriend]

I just read an article by a zen master and he said you pay attention to thinking in meditation.

[pegembara]

You pay attention to anything that arises.
Your only task is to remain as the 'silent witness' to all that is happening eg. thoughts, emotions and intentions.
You can even do this in the middle of your workplace.

Seeing thus … you understand: ‘… This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

[xun2x]

You pay attention to anything that arises.
Your only task is to remain as the 'silent witness' to all that is happening eg. thoughts, emotions and intentions.
You can even do this in the middle of your workplace.

Seeing thus … you understand: ‘… This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

What to do with that ? Just know ?

Thank you

[tamdrin]

How do you let thoughts not affect you if a person thinks a good thought they will feel good if they think a bad thought they will feel bad, It takes effort but I notice when A bad thought pops up if I relax and pay gentle attention to it I see it as not self and don't identify with it I can see it as anicca Dukkha Anatta. I think nibbana is not being affected or afflicted by any experience. I've been meditating doing relaxed choiceless awareness and when I have an emotion like worry come up I felt like I was space or my experience was of one of spacious awareness rather than worry the worry didn't dominate my being because there was so much space there. I'd like to not identify with thoughts but they stick to the heart unless I relax an be aware but this takes almost too much effort.

It sounds like you are practicing well when you "felt like I was space or my experience was one of spacious awareness rather than the worry". This means you have mindfulness and clear comprehension.

[pegembara]

You pay attention to anything that arises.
Your only task is to remain as the 'silent witness' to all that is happening eg. thoughts, emotions and intentions.
You can even do this in the middle of your workplace.

Seeing thus … you understand: ‘… This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

What to do with that ? Just know ?

Thank you

Your job is to silently witness things or dhammas that arise and cease. After a period of observation, you will come to understand all dhammas that arise and cease are not yours, not you and not yourself.
A space opens up and allow you to dissociate from those things.
The mind then inclines away from those experiences.

[Dan74]

A very good question. I think equanimity in Theravada is closest to what you're talking about, so it might be worthwhile looking at what the Buddha taught about equanimity.

The famous teaching is the simile of the saw from MN 21:

there are these five ways in which others might criticize you. Their speech may be timely or untimely, true or false, gentle or harsh, beneficial or harmful, from a heart of love or from secret hate. When others criticize you, they may do so in any of these ways. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart like a catskin bag to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.

Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb with a two-handled saw, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.

There's more detail in MN 152:

“And how, Ānanda, is there the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They understand: ‘Liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking have come up in me. That’s conditioned, coarse, and dependently originated. But this is peaceful and sublime, namely equanimity.’ Then the liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. It’s like how a person with good sight might open their eyes then shut them; or might shut their eyes then open them. Such is the speed, the swiftness, the ease with which any liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking at all that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. In the training of the Noble One this is called the supreme development of the faculties regarding sights known by the eye.

Furthermore, when a mendicant hears a sound with their ears, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They understand: ‘Liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking have come up in me. That’s conditioned, coarse, and dependently originated. But this is peaceful and sublime, namely equanimity.’ Then the liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. It’s like how a strong person can effortlessly snap their fingers. Such is the speed, the swiftness, the ease with which any liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking at all that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. In the training of the Noble One this is called the supreme development of the faculties regarding sounds known by the ear.

Furthermore, when a mendicant smells an odor with their nose, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They understand: ‘Liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking have come up in me. That’s conditioned, coarse, and dependently originated. But this is peaceful and sublime, namely equanimity.’ Then the liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. It’s like how a drop of water would roll off a gently sloping lotus leaf, and would not stay there. Such is the speed, the swiftness, the ease with which any liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking at all that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. In the training of the Noble One this is called the supreme development of the faculties regarding smells known by the nose.

Furthermore, when a mendicant tastes a flavor with their tongue, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They understand: ‘Liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking have come up in me. That’s conditioned, coarse, and dependently originated. But this is peaceful and sublime, namely equanimity.’ Then the liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. It’s like how a strong person who’s formed a glob of spit on the tip of their tongue could easily spit it out. Such is the speed, the swiftness, the ease with which any liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking at all that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. In the training of the Noble One this is called the supreme development of the faculties regarding tastes known by the tongue.

Furthermore, when a mendicant feels a touch with their body, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They understand: ‘Liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking have come up in me. That’s conditioned, coarse, and dependently originated. But this is peaceful and sublime, namely equanimity.’ Then the liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. It’s like how a strong person can extend or contract their arm. Such is the speed, the swiftness, the ease with which any liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking at all that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. In the training of the Noble One this is called the supreme development of the faculties regarding touches known by the body.

Furthermore, when a mendicant knows a thought with their mind, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They understand: ‘Liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking have come up in me. That’s conditioned, coarse, and dependently originated. But this is peaceful and sublime, namely equanimity.’ Then the liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. It’s like how a strong person could let two or three drops of water fall onto an iron cauldron that had been heated all day. The drops would be slow to fall, but they’d quickly dry up and evaporate. Such is the speed, the swiftness, the ease with which any liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking at all that came up in them cease, and equanimity becomes stabilized. In the training of the Noble One this is called the supreme development of the faculties regarding thoughts known by the mind. That’s how there is the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One.

And how are they a practicing trainee? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They are horrified, repelled, and disgusted by that. When they hear a sound with their ears … When they smell an odor with their nose … When they taste a flavor with their tongue … When they feel a touch with their body … When they know a thought with their mind, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They are horrified, repelled, and disgusted by that. That’s how they are a practicing trainee.

And how are they a noble one with developed faculties? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and the repulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate staying equanimous, mindful and aware, rejecting both the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do.

When they hear a sound with their ear … When they smell an odor with their nose … When they taste a flavor with their tongue … When they feel a touch with their body … When they know a thought with their mind, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and the repulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate staying equanimous, mindful and aware, rejecting both the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. That’s how they are a noble one with developed faculties.

One shouldn't even cling to equanimity, if possible (MN 106):

“Ānanda, take a mendicant who practices like this: 10.9‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ 10.10In this way they gain equanimity. 10.11They approve, welcome, and keep clinging to that equanimity. 10.12Their consciousness relies on that and grasps it. 10.13A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.”

11.1“But sir, what is that mendicant grasping?”

11.2“The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”

11.3“Sir, it seems that mendicant is grasping the best thing to grasp!”

11.4“Indeed, Ānanda. 11.5For the best thing to grasp is 11.6the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

12.1Take a mendicant who practices like this: 12.2‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ 12.3In this way they gain equanimity. 12.4They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to that equanimity. 12.5So their consciousness doesn’t rely on that and grasp it. 12.6A mendicant free of grasping becomes extinguished.”

I was taught (by Zen teachers) something similar to what you're doing. That space around, yes. Turning the attention back at the one who perceives, the one who experiences, we become cognisant of that space and not identify with the thought or feeling.

[befriend]

Thanks for the replies kalyanamittas

[pegembara]

I was taught (by Zen teachers) something similar to what you're doing. That space around, yes. Turning the attention back at the one who perceives, the one who experiences, we become cognisant of that space and not identify with the thought or feeling.

You can turn away from the object, that is all.
Your "eyes" can never see itself which is merely a perception or your imagination. An image.
Trying to do that is akin to a dog trying to catch its own tail.
Ungraspable, unpinnable.

[xun2x]

Your job is to silently witness things or dhammas that arise and cease. After a period of observation, you will come to understand all dhammas that arise and cease are not yours, not you and not yourself.
A space opens up and allow you to dissociate from those things.
The mind then inclines away from those experiences.

Do you need deep concentration to do this ? the one in visudimagga, pegembara or pengembara ?

[Dhammapardon]

You pay attention to anything that arises.
Your only task is to remain as the 'silent witness' to all that is happening eg. thoughts, emotions and intentions.
You can even do this in the middle of your workplace.

Seeing thus … you understand: ‘… This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

Is it possible for nothing to arise? Maybe not while at work but in formal sitting?

[pegembara]

Your job is to silently witness things or dhammas that arise and cease. After a period of observation, you will come to understand all dhammas that arise and cease are not yours, not you and not yourself.
A space opens up and allow you to dissociate from those things.
The mind then inclines away from those experiences.

Do you need deep concentration to do this ? the one in visudimagga, pegembara or pengembara ?

Don't think you do. You just need a degree of anchoring or tethering of the mind so that it doesn't run away with thoughts.

“Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile… a bird… a dog… a hyena… a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all with a strong rope, he would tether them to a strong post or stake.

“The ‘strong post or stake’ is a synonym for mindfulness immersed in the body.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_206.html

[pegembara]

You pay attention to anything that arises.
Your only task is to remain as the 'silent witness' to all that is happening eg. thoughts, emotions and intentions.
You can even do this in the middle of your workplace.

Seeing thus … you understand: ‘… This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

Is it possible for nothing to arise? Maybe not while at work but in formal sitting?

At first, there may be short gaps or 'spaces' between the happenings.
With experience, the spaces open up.
Try out and see.

[xun2x]

You pay attention to anything that arises.
Your only task is to remain as the 'silent witness' to all that is happening eg. thoughts, emotions and intentions.
You can even do this in the middle of your workplace.

Is it possible for nothing to arise? Maybe not while at work but in formal sitting?

At first, there may be short gaps or 'spaces' between the happenings.
With experience, the spaces open up.
Try out and see.

I think it still arise, but awareness make it clear, not to get involve. I don't know at last, nothing arise.

[Dhammapardon]

You pay attention to anything that arises.
Your only task is to remain as the 'silent witness' to all that is happening eg. thoughts, emotions and intentions.
You can even do this in the middle of your workplace.

Is it possible for nothing to arise? Maybe not while at work but in formal sitting?

At first, there may be short gaps or 'spaces' between the happenings.
With experience, the spaces open up.
Try out and see.

Good reminder. I think the sun shines light on the clutter so it can then clean up the view.