what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

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frank k
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what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by frank k »

what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?
When Buddha was still unenlightened, he had fear going into wild jungles living alone.He was able to conquer fear by reflecting that 14 different problems, he didn't have, because he is one of the 'noble ones'.What does ariya mean there, if he hadn't become a Buddha yet and still had fear?
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Eko Care
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by Eko Care »

There are two kinds of people called Ariya and Puthujjana.
There are two kinds of Puthujjana called Kalyana Puthujjana (admirable puthujjana) and Andhabala Puthujjana (blind and foolish puthujjana).

Some of the second type of puthujjanas might think that they can be Ariya, if they could convince it to themselves using idiosyncratic text-critical mumbo jumbo.
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mjaviem
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by mjaviem »

frank k wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 6:27 pm what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?
When Buddha was still unenlightened, he had fear going into wild jungles living alone.He was able to conquer fear by reflecting that 14 different problems, he didn't have, because he is one of the 'noble ones'.What does ariya mean there, if he hadn't become a Buddha yet and still had fear?
I don't understand the question. In MN 4 the Buddha says he's purified in conduct, in livelihood, etc. So although unenlightened, he's already noble nonetheless
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frank k
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by frank k »

Usually people take ariya/noble to mean one of four stages of sainthood (stream entry... arahant).
If Buddha was un-enlightened at the time he said he was ariya/noble in MN 4, then ariya can't mean one of those 4 stages (you can't be unenlighted and stream enterer at the same time), ariya in MN 4 must just mean well developed sila or something like that.

PED definition is a jumbled mess, I can't figure out what all the meanings of 'ariya' are.
What was the pre-buddhist meaning of ariya? just a sage? Buddha obviously redefined nirvana, arahant, so does he still use pre-buddhist meaning for 'ariya' sometimes?
mjaviem wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 9:55 pm
frank k wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 6:27 pm what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?
When Buddha was still unenlightened, he had fear going into wild jungles living alone.He was able to conquer fear by reflecting that 14 different problems, he didn't have, because he is one of the 'noble ones'.What does ariya mean there, if he hadn't become a Buddha yet and still had fear?
I don't understand the question. In MN 4 the Buddha says he's purified in conduct, in livelihood, etc. So although unenlightened, he's already noble nonetheless
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by mjaviem »

frank k wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 10:24 pm ...
If Buddha was un-enlightened at the time he said he was ariya/noble in MN 4, then ariya can't mean one of those 4 stages (you can't be unenlighted and stream enterer at the same time), ariya in MN 4 must just mean well developed sila or something like that.
...
Unless we understood "unenlightened" as "not fully-enlightened" or "partially enlightened"... In this case ariya could still mean sotapanna and up.
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by santa100 »

frank k wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 10:24 pm Usually people take ariya/noble to mean one of four stages of sainthood (stream entry... arahant).
If Buddha was un-enlightened at the time he said he was ariya/noble in MN 4, then ariya can't mean one of those 4 stages (you can't be unenlighted and stream enterer at the same time), ariya in MN 4 must just mean well developed sila or something like that.
That seems to be the case in MN 4. Even when Ariya wasn't used in the context of the 4 Fruits, it's still something quite impressive: MN 4 iterates a long list of 16 different purifications before one can qualify himself as an Ariya, starting from purification of bodily conduct, verbal conduct, mental conduct, etc...
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by Joe.c »

Only an ariya (sotapanna & up) can hold perfected precepts and others with wisdom.

Puthujjana can't do it and will only suppress with samadhi. This is why they will comeback down again. And the lower realms are still WIDE OPEN. 😁
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by ssasny »

It's a good question.

Ye hi vo ariyā parisuddhakāyakammantā araññavanapatthāni pantāni senāsanāni paṭisevanti tesamahaṁ aññataro’ti.

Of course, as you know, the word ariya has many different connotations and predated Buddhist usage.
The obvious, most common usage of 'ariya' in the Pali suttas takes on a specialized sense of one who has made the breakthrough to the Dhamma, one who has destroyed some of the fetters, a sotāpana or more.

But is does have a flexible meaning in the suttas, and can even be applied as an adjective to things like 'noble silence' (ariya tuṇhībhāva), and certain behaviors are considered to be unacceptable in the 'discipline of the noble ones' (ariyassa vinaye).

It would seem the usage cited here corresponds to the PED's third definition.
Have you looked to see if the commentary says anything about this?

Added:
The usage you found looks to correspond to the positive version of this famous usage of the 'ignoble' two extremes:

Yo cāyaṃ kāmesu kāmasukhallikānuyogo hīno gammo pothujjaniko anariyo anatthasaṃhito, yo cāyaṃ attakilamathānuyogo dukkho anariyo anatthasaṃhito.

i.e.: one who is not enmeshed in the pursuit of sensual pleasures or self mortification.
Last edited by ssasny on Mon May 15, 2023 2:07 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Eko Care
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by Eko Care »

There are many phrases that render a context-dependent meaning.

Dhamma >> Doctrine, Natural law, Phenomena
Sangha >> Conventional sangha, Ariya sangha
Sankhara >> Compounded things, Cetana
Nama >> 3 khandhas, 4 khandas
Rupa >> Form, Colour
....
....
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frank k
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by frank k »

'ariya' defn.: ethically-noble different from enlightened-noble. In MN 4, Buddha was unenlightened at the time so he was ethically-noble (not enlightened-noble)
From a conversation I had with

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Eko Care
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by Eko Care »

Do you think it is the greatest discovery in this century?

(I have met many who are entangled in phrases)
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by ssasny »

frank k wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 4:25 pm 'ariya' defn.: ethically-noble different from enlightened-noble. In MN 4, Buddha was unenlightened at the time so he was ethically-noble (not enlightened-noble)
Yes, it seems like it to me. Similar to PED's "right, good, ideal", "an (ethically) model person".
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by ssasny »

Eko Care wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 4:56 pm Do you think it is the greatest discovery in this century?

(I have met many who are entangled in phrases)
This comment seems a good example of pharusa vaca, anariya behavior.

Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo madhubhāṇī?
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo pharusaṁ vācaṁ pahāya pharusāya vācāya paṭivirato hoti; yā sā vācā nelā kaṇṇasukhā pemanīyā hadayaṅgamā porī bahujanakantā bahujanamanāpā tathārūpiṁ vācaṁ bhāsitā hoti.


[He speaks such words as are gentle, pleasing to the ear, and lovable, as go to the heart, are courteous, desired by many, and agreeable to many.]
Anguttara 3.28
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Eko Care
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by Eko Care »

ssasny wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 5:27 pm
Eko Care wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 4:56 pm Do you think it is the greatest discovery in this century?

(I have met many who are entangled in phrases)
This comment seems a good example of pharusa vaca, anariya behavior.
Why dear you are so direct? :heart:

Are there two different versions of 'pharusa vaca' as unethically-harsh and unenlighetened-harsh?
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mjaviem
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Re: what does 'ariya' mean in MN 4?

Post by mjaviem »

frank k wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 4:25 pm 'ariya' defn.: ethically-noble different from enlightened-noble. In MN 4, Buddha was unenlightened at the time so he was ethically-noble (not enlightened-noble)
From a conversation I had with

Digital Pāḷi Dictionary Team:
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... erent.html
In MN4, what is missing for the unenlightened Bodhisatta to become a sotapanna? Because it seems to me everything necessary is already there. Why saying he's just an ethically good person but not as good as a sotapanna?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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