Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

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BrokenBones
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:17 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:52 am
Some Buddhists take this view...

But it's all good... we're all Buddhists 🤗
You and Eko Care are mirror images of each other.
I'll take that as a compliment 👍
BrokenBones
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by BrokenBones »

robertk wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:55 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:52 am Scholars, who would cut a flower into a million pieces to 'see' what makes it beautiful.

Dear BrokenBones
these days - as much or even more than in the past- we are weak in understanding. The Abhidhamma and Commentaries greatly help in breaking down what we thought was lasting, what we thought was a whole.
We read about, for example, seeing in the suttas yes, but we might still think seeing lasts. The Abhidhamma hammers home the momentariness and many conditions needed for a moment of seeing to arise.
So the suttapitaka and Abhidhammapitaka are both necessary.
Robert... despite disagreeing with you 100% I sense that your approach to Abhidhamma & the suttas is a saner one than some and I'm sure you find beneficial Dhamma through it...
(I was going to say despite it but I'm trying to be nice 😂).
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robertk
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:42 am

Robert... despite disagreeing with you 100% I sense that your approach to Abhidhamma & the suttas is a saner one than some and I'm sure you find beneficial Dhamma through it...
(I was going to say despite it but I'm trying to be nice 😂).
😂 :toast:
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Sasha_A
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Sasha_A »

All problems with the existence of Abhidhamma are easily resolved in one simple way - by designating it as a secondary work to the suttas: Abhidhamma must be consistent with the suttas and its statements must be checked against the suttas, its translation and interpretation must be done on the basis of the suttas. What is secondary should be put second and what is primary first, not as it is now, where what is secondary is put first and what is primary is put second. After all, any classification or systematisation cannot be primary in relation to what it classifies and systematises. Unfortunately, the roots of this inverted order are already very deep.

And as for the differences in method:
Ven. Nanavira wrote:SAṄKHĀRA
...the Dhamma does not set out to explain, but to lead—it is opanayika. This means that the Dhamma is not seeking disinterested intellectual approval, but to provoke an effort of comprehension or insight leading to the abandonment of attavāda and eventually of asmimāna. Its method is therefore necessarily indirect...
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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SDC
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by SDC »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:38 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:17 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:52 am
Some Buddhists take this view...

But it's all good... we're all Buddhists 🤗
You and Eko Care are mirror images of each other.
I'll take that as a compliment 👍
You could also take it as a hint that perhaps a drawback in the intensity of your campaign against the Abhidhamma would cease to trigger the Eko Cares of the world into taking extreme measures to endorse it. Less oscillation would do wonders for those attempting to be sensible about their approach to the Dhamma.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
BrokenBones
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by BrokenBones »

SDC wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:38 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:38 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:17 am

You and Eko Care are mirror images of each other.
I'll take that as a compliment 👍
You could also take it as a hint that perhaps a drawback in the intensity of your campaign against the Abhidhamma would cease to trigger the Eko Cares of the world into taking extreme measures to endorse it. Less oscillation would do wonders for those attempting to be sensible about their approach to the Dhamma.
I'll take that as a whinge 👎

I don't see my posts as a campaign against Abhidhamma... merely a defence of the Suttas. If that triggers you or others then I'm sorry... but tough.

As a follower of the Buddha, I see little error in advocating for his teachings to be treated with the respect they deserve... the only error might lie in my sarcastic way of posting... but hey... very few of us here are saints 😆
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robertk
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:18 am The Wikipedia article, simple and basic as it was, gave me a headache. Is that really what the Buddha taught in the suttas? I think not.
Perhaps some of it is entirely true (maybe) but the Buddha was only interested in teaching towards the ending of suffering... not prolonging it with endless lists.



Such lists hardly inspire.
Dear BrokenBones
Abhidhamma can be approached in a different way than reading many pages of lists. It becomes lively and real to the extent that we see the lists are actually here and now.

Even the one who devotes most time to suttanta will have to
know much about the khandas, the ayatanas(sense fields), and the
dhatus(elements) , the different conditions; as these are, as the
visuddhimagga says "the soil in which understanding grows".

I have never seen any conflict between Abhidhamma, Sutta and Commentaries - although I don't claim to have any exceptional understanding.
But anyway, if you like, catalogue the areas of Abhidhamma/Commentaries that that you think are wrong or in conflict with the suttapitaka and I will respond.
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frank k
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

I've already attempted to engage you before on this topic, but here goes again.
MN 111.
Explain how vism. redefinition of jhana and MN 111 are describing the same jhana.
robertk wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 3:04 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:18 am The Wikipedia article, simple and basic as it was, gave me a headache. Is that really what the Buddha taught in the suttas? I think not.
Perhaps some of it is entirely true (maybe) but the Buddha was only interested in teaching towards the ending of suffering... not prolonging it with endless lists.



Such lists hardly inspire.
Dear BrokenBones
Abhidhamma can be approached in a different way than reading many pages of lists. It becomes lively and real to the extent that we see the lists are actually here and now.

Even the one who devotes most time to suttanta will have to
know much about the khandas, the ayatanas(sense fields), and the
dhatus(elements) , the different conditions; as these are, as the
visuddhimagga says "the soil in which understanding grows".

I have never seen any conflict between Abhidhamma, Sutta and Commentaries - although I don't claim to have any exceptional understanding.
But anyway, if you like, catalogue the areas of Abhidhamma/Commentaries that that you think are wrong or in conflict with the suttapitaka and I will respond.
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frank k
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

Well said.
IMO, it's kind of arrogant and presumptious to even have a 3rd basket (pitaka) on the same level as Dhamma and vinaya.
Abhdhamma should be on it's own group, not called a basket to avoid confusion, several hundred feet below the Dhamma and Vinaya basket, not only out of respect, but to make it very clear it's a secondary analysis derived from the original source.
Sasha_A wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 8:47 am All problems with the existence of Abhidhamma are easily resolved in one simple way - by designating it as a secondary work to the suttas: Abhidhamma must be consistent with the suttas and its statements must be checked against the suttas, its translation and interpretation must be done on the basis of the suttas. What is secondary should be put second and what is primary first, not as it is now, where what is secondary is put first and what is primary is put second. After all, any classification or systematisation cannot be primary in relation to what it classifies and systematises. Unfortunately, the roots of this inverted order are already very deep.

And as for the differences in method:
Ven. Nanavira wrote:SAṄKHĀRA
...the Dhamma does not set out to explain, but to lead—it is opanayika. This means that the Dhamma is not seeking disinterested intellectual approval, but to provoke an effort of comprehension or insight leading to the abandonment of attavāda and eventually of asmimāna. Its method is therefore necessarily indirect...
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 1:36 pm
I don't see my posts as a campaign against Abhidhamma... merely a defence of the Suttas. If that triggers you or others then I'm sorry... but tough.

As a follower of the Buddha, I see little error in advocating for his teachings to be treated with the respect they deserve... the only error might lie in my sarcastic way of posting... but hey... very few of us here are saints 😆
Every sincere Buddhist thinks that, including Abhidhammikas and Mahayanaists. Rather than understanding that we get hostility, sneering.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
BrokenBones
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:02 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 1:36 pm
I don't see my posts as a campaign against Abhidhamma... merely a defence of the Suttas. If that triggers you or others then I'm sorry... but tough.

As a follower of the Buddha, I see little error in advocating for his teachings to be treated with the respect they deserve... the only error might lie in my sarcastic way of posting... but hey... very few of us here are saints 😆
Every sincere Buddhist thinks that, including Abhidhammikas and Mahayanaists. Rather than understanding that we get hostility, sneering.
😂 now we have to accept Mahayana as the true Dhamma.

It's only hostile & sneering in your own mind. My sarcasm is generally aimed at the subject at hand while I've noticed that your reactions generally degenerate to personal attacks 😭

😂only kidding, I can take it... I've visited Wales many times.
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robertk
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 3:44 pm I've already attempted to engage you before on this topic, but here goes again.
MN 111.
Explain how vism. redefinition of jhana and MN 111 are describing the same jhana.

Dear Frank
In MN 111 it is assumed that the listener knows Sariputta is entering and exiting jhana and that immediately after exiting jhana his wisdom can know the factors of each jhana.

It is like when discussing the present moment and the Buddha saying that a monk understands greed as greed:So in the Satipatthana sutta the section in the section on The Contemplation of Consciousness
the first thing it says is:
"
And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness?
"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust;
The actual moment of understanding is of course not with lust - the bhikkhu is insighting those moments that have just fallen away.

So while Sariputta was fanning the Buddha he could enter and exit jhana, have deep moments of insight, and also listen to the teaching that the Buddha was giving.
It all shows the rapidity of the arising and passing of dhammas. It also shows the amazing wisdom of Sariputta and his mastery of jhana.

We are so weak in understanding now - but by learning to see the nature of dhammas, that dhammas are insignificant and momentary we are beginning to follow the path of Sariputta. And that can be right now, no need to develop mastery of jhana first- that is for the ones with extraordinary accumulations.
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frank k
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

From previous discussions with RobertK on MN 111 and Ven. Dhammanando on MN 111
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... n-111.html
Robert on MN 111 is in the 'elephant in the room' article.
🔗fun with fallacies: 2021/03 MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry
Why would attainment #8 and #9 need 'emerging' to then reflect on past dhammas, while attainments 1-7 don't?
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn111/index.html#8
The four jhānas don't 'emerge', they examine past dhammas while still in those attainments
for example 3rd jhana:
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn111/index.html#3

cetana (volition), adhimokkho (decision) are live, active in all 7 attainments, but not in attainments 8-9.
If you check the gloss for sampajano in Abhdhamma Vb, it's the same as it is for satipatthana as it is for the jhana.
Same as it is for AN 4.41 as MN 111 and AN 9.36.

https://lucid24.org/mn/mn125/index.html#3.10.3
MN 125 equates satipatthana with first jhana.

No emerging from satipatthana is necessary to look at past dhammas, so why would you need to emerge from first jhana to do that?
robertk wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:25 am
frank k wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 3:44 pm I've already attempted to engage you before on this topic, but here goes again.
MN 111.
Explain how vism. redefinition of jhana and MN 111 are describing the same jhana.

Dear Frank
In MN 111 it is assumed that the listener knows Sariputta is entering and exiting jhana and that immediately after exiting jhana his wisdom can know the factors of each jhana.

It is like when discussing the present moment and the Buddha saying that a monk understands greed as greed:So in the Satipatthana sutta the section in the section on The Contemplation of Consciousness
the first thing it says is:
"
And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness?
"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust;
The actual moment of understanding is of course not with lust - the bhikkhu is insighting those moments that have just fallen away.

So while Sariputta was fanning the Buddha he could enter and exit jhana, have deep moments of insight, and also listen to the teaching that the Buddha was giving.
It all shows the rapidity of the arising and passing of dhammas. It also shows the amazing wisdom of Sariputta and his mastery of jhana.

We are so weak in understanding now - but by learning to see the nature of dhammas, that dhammas are insignificant and momentary we are beginning to follow the path of Sariputta. And that can be right now, no need to develop mastery of jhana first- that is for the ones with extraordinary accumulations.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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robertk
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:22 am
MN 125 equates satipatthana with first jhana.
No emerging from satipatthana is necessary to look at past dhammas, so why would you need to emerge from first jhana to do that?
Dear Frank,
so in first jhana there can be elements like lust and aversion?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:32 pm

😂 now we have to accept Mahayana as the true Dhamma.
No, but they do respect the texts and are sincere.
It's only hostile & sneering in your own mind. My sarcasm is generally aimed at the subject at hand while I've noticed that your reactions generally degenerate to personal attacks 😭
Just calling out bad behaviour, which your constant sneering at those with whom you disagree with is.
😂only kidding, I can take it... I've visited Wales many times.
:thumbsup:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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