Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

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Eko Care
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Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Eko Care »

Few facts about the two methods, could be captured during one of the video lessons of Ven. Maggavihari.
Suttanta-pariyaya and Abhidhama-pariyaya.

These are the two methods that explain a certain Dhamma in Suttas.

There are Suttas that indicates the causes like "Sahajata-paccaya" up to a certain level.
But the causes like "Anantara-paccaya" are hard to find in the Suttas.
The reason is the deepness of the paccaya explanation of Abhidhamma, is not generally used in Sutta-pitaka which is called Conventional-explanation (Sammuti-desana).

Still there are few Ultimate-explanations (Paramattha-desana) to be found in the Suttas.
For an instance, there are Suttas that say "Sanna arises first and Panna arises second".
But both Cetasikas arise at the same time, according to Abhidhamma.
Therefore it should be understood with referece to two Mind-moments (Cittuppadas).

This is why we need to learn Theravada-fundamentals first.
Then the Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma all are viewed from that angle.
This is the value of a tradition.
If we read Suttas alone, what we understood is clashed with another Sutta or with Abhidhamma.
The only way to prevent this clashing is the adherence to the ancient way of interpretation.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Eko Care wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:14 am This is why we need to learn Theravada-fundamentals first.
Then the Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma all are viewed from that angle.
This is the value of a tradition.
Why learn "Theravada Fundamentals" first, and view the Tipitaka through that lens... rather than start with the Buddha's teaching, and then see the rest, including "Theravada Fundamentals", through that lens?

Starting with sectarian views sounds sectarian to me.

Please advise. :thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Sam Vara
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Sam Vara »

Moderator note: This topic has been moved out of "Abhidhamma" into "General Theravada", in order that people wishing to debate it can do so.

Posters are advised to refrain from posting contentious topics in areas where the "offside rule" can be invoked when those contentious ideas are challenged. :thanks:
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SDC
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by SDC »

SN 47.1 wrote: Bhikkhus, this is the one-way path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method, for the realization of Nibbāna, that is, the four establishments of mindfulness.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Eko Care
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Eko Care »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:10 pm Moderator note: This topic has been moved out of "Abhidhamma" into "General Theravada", in order that people wishing to debate it can do so.

Posters are advised to refrain from posting contentious topics in areas where the "offside rule" can be invoked when those contentious ideas are challenged. :thanks:
It is constituting own biases into regulations.

If you categorize it as contentious, then all the classical theravada opinions become contentious.

Sutta method and Abhidhamma method is a widely used teaching in Abhidhamma and Commentaries.

It is not objectively contentious and made contentious by anti-classical contentious people.
ssasny
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by ssasny »

All religious views are potentially contentious.

Arguing ‘ex cathedra’ usually doesn’t lend credence to one’s assertion.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Sam Vara »

Eko Care wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:32 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:10 pm Moderator note: This topic has been moved out of "Abhidhamma" into "General Theravada", in order that people wishing to debate it can do so.

Posters are advised to refrain from posting contentious topics in areas where the "offside rule" can be invoked when those contentious ideas are challenged. :thanks:
It is constituting own biases into regulations.
I don't think that can be so, as the regulations were here before I was. There is no bias here. Moving a thread into where it can be debated is not an act of bias; nothing is lost, censored, or altered. Your message reaches as many, if not more people than it would have done in the Abhidhamma section.
If you categorize it as contentious, then all the classical theravada opinions become contentious.
That's right. This is a forum for discussing Theravada opinions. You'll see that a couple of people have taken issue with your OP already, which means that others might consider it contentious.
Sutta method and Abhidhamma method is a widely used teaching in Abhidhamma and Commentaries.
Of course.
It is not objectively contentious and made contentious by anti-classical contentious people.
I don't recognise the concept "objectively contentious", I'm afraid. Things become contentious when people want to contend.

Now, having cleared that up, could I ask you to refrain from posting meta-discussion, and get :focus:

:anjali:
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by dharmacorps »

If the Adhidhamma is so helpful and awesome, why the tremendous insecurity about proving its relevance? Its usefulness should be self-evident to any Buddhist.

Of course the reality is instead that it is a portion of the canon only preferred by a minority of specialists. Why is that a problem?

The answer of course is it isn't. If it works for some people, great.

It is only sectarian zealots who find a problem there. Chomping at the bit about it is their purview, not Buddhists in general or this forum specifically.
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Eko Care
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Eko Care »

Its usefulness should be self-evident to any Buddhist.
Only to real Buddhists.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:07 pm
Its usefulness should be self-evident to any Buddhist.
Only to real Buddhists.
The only pattern I’m seeing here is the elevation of yourself above others through Theravada.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
dharmacorps
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by dharmacorps »

Eko Care wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:07 pm
Its usefulness should be self-evident to any Buddhist.
Only to real Buddhists.
What does the Abhidhamma say about egotism?

Asking for a friend who isn't a real Buddhist.
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Eko Care
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Eko Care »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:17 pm The only pattern I’m seeing here is the elevation of yourself above others through Theravada.
Theravada has long been supporting Theravadins to elevate themselves morally.
dharmacorps wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:22 pm What does the Abhidhamma say about egotism?
The conceit is akusala as well as anger.
ssasny
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by ssasny »

How much Abhidhamma study is required to qualify as a real buddhist?

Would those spoken about in the suttas who seemingly gain enlightenment without studying Abhidhamma be considered fake Buddhists?

Is there an exam one must pass to qualify as Real?
dharmacorps
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by dharmacorps »

Eko Care wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:23 pm
The conceit is akusala as well as anger.
Don't look for it in the Twilight Zone, look for it in the mirror.
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SDC
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by SDC »

Eko Care wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:23 pm Theravada has long been supporting Theravadins to elevate themselves morally.
You’re using it as an identity to support superiority, and it’s really disconcerting the way you try to impress upon others that being a real Buddhist is to belittle anyone who doesn’t follow your chosen tradition.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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