Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

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frank k
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

Still waiting for a response Robert.
At least what I've pointed out about MN 111, MN 125, MN 119 should make you wonder how Vism. and suttas are talking about the same jhāna, if that's still your view.


frank k wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:12 pm
robertk wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:11 pm ...
Dear Frank
So in the section of the Satipatthana sutta where it mentions speaking possibly it could be referring to a highly skilled yogi who makes body duplicates while in 4th jhana, and it is one of the duplicates who is speaking?

What about the other actions mentioned below, like going forwards.. looking straight on or looking away.
Could they be done while in first jhana, without the need for a duplicate?
And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension [,,] in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension
Let's back up and look at the straightforward case first.
going by MN 125, a monk is doing satipatthana sitting down, eyes closed, with occasional verbal linguistic thoughts of "may all beings be happy."
doing that, monk experiences mental joy (pīti), physical pleasure felt with the body (sukha),
singular focus (ekaggata and samādhi) on thoughts of skillful Dharma not are not kāma-vitakka, etc.

He's doing satipatthana as first jhāna concurrently according to MN 125.

Are we agreed so far, what the Buddha's words are saying in the suttas about jhāna is different than Vism.?
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:44 am Still waiting for a response Robert.
At least what I've pointed out about MN 111, MN 125, MN 119 should make you wonder how Vism. and suttas are talking about the same jhāna, if that's still your view.
Many apologies for my slow response Frank! I read your post a few days ago but it is a busy time at work.
I do still think the Vism. has it right about jhana. Remember that the Commentaries explain 2 types of jhana:
Arammanūpanijjhāna and lakkhanūpanijjhāna.
The Dhammapada 371
"Meditate, o
bhikkhu and be not heedless.
The Atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of
meditative absorptions"
And the tika notes that this is twofold in
"the sense of
meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and
meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506
note 6 of carter and palihawadana)
"the eight attainments
[Mundane jhanas] to be obtained by training the mind in
concentrating on
one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or
breath etc] and the second means 'insight
wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the
three characteristics'
Also found in several places in majjhima commentary it says "Meditate
(upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na)[i.e the objects of
samatha] with the meditation
(upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according
to anicca etc with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na).
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

I appreciate that you took the time to acknowledge and respond, but this doesn't really explain why you think the two types of jhāna vism. and the commentaries talk about are the same as the jhāna and satipatthāna are described in MN 111, MN 125, MN 119.

I'm all for people wanting to support their flavor of Buddhism, whether mahāyana, theravada abhidhamma, any other abhidharma, visuddhimagga, as long as they're honest about the real differences between them.

If one is going to claim their LBT flavor of Buddhism is the legitimate word of Buddha that doesn't contradict EBT, and if one doesn't agree there are real differences, one should be able to at least openly disclose a published, detailed audit explaining how, why, and refuting the claims from an EBT sutta based examination showing clear contradiction.



robertk wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:13 am
frank k wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:44 am Still waiting for a response Robert.
At least what I've pointed out about MN 111, MN 125, MN 119 should make you wonder how Vism. and suttas are talking about the same jhāna, if that's still your view.
Many apologies for my slow response Frank! I read your post a few days ago but it is a busy time at work.
I do still think the Vism. has it right about jhana. Remember that the Commentaries explain 2 types of jhana:
Arammanūpanijjhāna and lakkhanūpanijjhāna.
The Dhammapada 371
"Meditate, o
bhikkhu and be not heedless.
The Atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of
meditative absorptions"
And the tika notes that this is twofold in
"the sense of
meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and
meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506
note 6 of carter and palihawadana)
"the eight attainments
[Mundane jhanas] to be obtained by training the mind in
concentrating on
one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or
breath etc] and the second means 'insight
wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the
three characteristics'
Also found in several places in majjhima commentary it says "Meditate
(upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na)[i.e the objects of
samatha] with the meditation
(upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according
to anicca etc with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na).
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frank k
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

from a thread about a year ago of RobertK and I attempting to cover the same ground
viewtopic.php?p=675147#p675147

Still waiting for your reply Robert. (and Ven. Dhammanando, and any other Abhidhamma expert)
Your silence is going to be taken as an acknowledgment that you've read the links and confirmed that:
1) The Ab Vibhanga 12 third jhāna gloss contradicts Aṭṭhakathā AN 5.28, DN 2 jhāna formula gloss which says kāya body is flesh and blood. Ab Vb 12 says kāya is mind only, not physical at all.
2) Vism. does a confusing and poor job of trying to explain how (1) is not a contradiction.
3) Petakopadesa, which is part of the tipitaka, obviously didn't get the same memo as Buddhaghosa with the time machine and the secret decoder ring where the Buddha confusingly really meant "mind only", when he says "body", he meant "not thinking" when he said "thinking", etc. In other words, Petakopadesa glosses the jhāna formula taking the Buddha's words at face value, body = physical body, thinking = thinking, etc. So if Vism. is right and "there is no contradiction" between sutta (jhāna involves body) and abhidhamma (jhāna is mind only), then why did the "ancient Sangha" that composed Pe differ from the ancient sangha that composed Vism.?

I've only presented the very clear and easy to see contradiction with 'kāya' in the 4 jhānas. There are many more contradictions with vitakka, rūpa, and the frozen appana state that only happens in Vism. redefinition of jhāna, and not in EBT sutta, not in Petakopadesa, and not in Vimuttimagga (which uses an earlier Abhihdhamma).
Another very easy and clear cut contradiction. Abhidhamma gloss of vitakka and vicāra in first jhāna includes samma sankappo, which would allow for linguistic thinking of renunciation, good will, etc. in first jhāna, whereas Vism. redefined first jhāna does not allow for any kind of linguistic or free subverbal mental processing while in appanā samādhi. Vism. contradicts canonical Abhidhamma in vitakka and vicara in first jhāna.

Can you at least reply and acknowledge you've seen these contradictions for yourself?
Every Buddhist has their own reasons for which sect they gravitate towards, but at least we should be honest with ourselves about how things really are. Abhidhamma contradicts the suttas in some very important doctrinal points. If you think the composers of the Abhidhamma made a better product than the Buddha's suttas, fine, but be honest about what it is. You can't look at the very clear and obvious evidence of contradictions and pretend the Buddha wrote both the Abhidhamma and sutta pitaka.
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by SDC »

frank k wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:07 am
Still waiting for your reply Robert. (and Ven. Dhammanando, and any other Abhidhamma expert)
Your silence is going to be taken as an acknowledgment that you've read the links and confirmed that:
Perhaps your interlocutors always bail because they don’t have every waking hour available to spend on the internet engaging with someone who only wants to see the discussion go in one direction. Doesn’t seem as though anyone is evading your ideas, they’re simply evading your immature behavior.

People have been telling you this for years, but hey just keep doing it the same way over and over and I’m sure eventually it’ll turn out different.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:07 am from a thread about a year ago of RobertK and I attempting to cover the same ground
viewtopic.php?p=675147#p675147

Still waiting for your reply Robert. (and Ven. Dhammanando, and any other Abhidhamma expert)
Your silence is going to be taken as an acknowledgment that you've read the links and confirmed that:
Actually I did reply there at the link you gave.

To reiterate: no conflict anywhere in Abhidhamma Sutta and Commentary that I have seen.

Could go back in this thread where I asked you:

Dear Frank
So in the section of the Satipatthana sutta where it mentions speaking possibly it could be referring to a highly skilled yogi who makes body duplicates while in 4th jhana, and it is one of the duplicates who is speaking?

What about the other actions mentioned below, like going forwards.. looking straight on or looking away.
Could they be done while in first jhana, without the need for a duplicate?


could you reply to that.
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

Hi Robert,
Hitting 'reply' and typing some stuff without really answering the questions doesn't count as addressing it.
I pointed out many specific areas where contradictions are happening, you're evading those points.
Your question to me is moot if you try to evade and avoid explaining how vitakka, kāya, for starters, are different in Vism. than in the suttas.
Vism. vitakka even contradicts Abhidhamma Vb. jhāna gloss.
Vism. and commentary jhāna is a huge incoherent mess.

robertk wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:48 am
frank k wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:07 am from a thread about a year ago of RobertK and I attempting to cover the same ground
viewtopic.php?p=675147#p675147

Still waiting for your reply Robert. (and Ven. Dhammanando, and any other Abhidhamma expert)
Your silence is going to be taken as an acknowledgment that you've read the links and confirmed that:
Actually I did reply there at the link you gave.

To reiterate: no conflict anywhere in Abhidhamma Sutta and Commentary that I have seen.

Could go back in this thread where I asked you:

Dear Frank
So in the section of the Satipatthana sutta where it mentions speaking possibly it could be referring to a highly skilled yogi who makes body duplicates while in 4th jhana, and it is one of the duplicates who is speaking?

What about the other actions mentioned below, like going forwards.. looking straight on or looking away.
Could they be done while in first jhana, without the need for a duplicate?


could you reply to that.
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:48 am ...
Let's try this from a different angle, keep it simple, to just one sutta.
MN 125 is pretty remarkable, equating satipatthana done with skillful Dhamma vitakka with first jhana, by explicitly removing the first jhana formula formula and adding a second satipatthana formula.

From a sutta perspective, if you can stand, walk, hear sounds, think verbal thoughts in satipatthana, have perception of the physical body, then you can do all of those things in first jhāna as well.
That's what MN 125 is saying.

You've not even attempted to explain how that could support a VIsm. redefinition of jhāna which can do none of those things (perceive physical body, hear sounds, think verbal thoughts, etc.).
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:08 am




From a sutta perspective, if you can stand, walk, hear sounds, think verbal thoughts in satipatthana, have perception of the physical body, then you can do all of those things in first jhāna as well.
That's what MN 125 is saying.

You've not even attempted to explain how that could support a VIsm. redefinition of jhāna which can do none of those things (perceive physical body, hear sounds, think verbal thoughts, etc.).
Dear Frank
sometimes in the suttas it reads like there is the possibility of experiencing sense door objects while still in jhana, but it should be understood that the listener knew that even in first jhana one is completely away from any perception of the senses. Of course there has to be emerging from jhana before there can be any experience of sense doors. It is like in the satipatthana sutta where it says

-
And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness?
"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust.
Obviously there is no understanding at the exact moment of lust. The listener understands that the bhikkhu is having insight into the immediately past moment of lust.
The Vibhanga (book of analysis) ch12 Analysis of Jhana
538: Abandoning covetousness in the world means:

...Therein what is the world? The five aggregates (as objects of) the attachments are the world...

§ 564: Aloof from sense pleasures...

§602; Having wholly passed the perceptions of form...

§ 603: Terminating perceptions of (sense) impingement means: ...Visible (object) operception, audible (object) perception...

§ 625: Therein, what is the first jhaana? Herein at the time when a bhikkhu develops the path for rebirth in the plane of form [N:of rupa-brahmas], he, aloof from sense pleasures, aloof from bad states, attains and dwells in earth device first jhaana...
For the one with mastery of jhana they can enter and exit jhana in the blink of eye. For those extraordinary ones - like Sariputta - they could be even fanning the Buddha (for example) and be entering and exiting jhana. But if they were immersed in jhana for long periods they would need to be seated.
Even first jhana is uttarimanussadhamma, a superhuman state. Not easily attained - except by those with the accumulations in samatha from past lives.
However there is no need to be skilled in jhana to develop satipatthana. One can even be speaking, or walking or urinating and develop it. There can be satipatthana immediately after there is lust or aversion.
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:40 am ...
The Vibhanga (book of analysis) ch12 Analysis of Jhana
538: Abandoning covetousness in the world means:

...Therein what is the world? The five aggregates (as objects of) the attachments are the world...

§ 564: Aloof from sense pleasures...

§602; Having wholly passed the perceptions of form...

§ 603: Terminating perceptions of (sense) impingement means: ...Visible (object) operception, audible (object) perception...

§ 625: Therein, what is the first jhaana? Herein at the time when a bhikkhu develops the path for rebirth in the plane of form [N:of rupa-brahmas], he, aloof from sense pleasures, aloof from bad states, attains and dwells in earth device first jhaana...
...
That doesn't look right to me.
Could you tell me what section (give a number from the pali section) that comes here:
https://lucid24.org/sted/ebt/not/te-ab/ ... index.html#

It looks like you quote a little of first jhana, then the base of infinite space (sabbaso rupa sanna samatikkama - where sensory impingement stops), and then $625 earth kasina FIRST jhana must be another section, not part of base of infinte space.
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:40 am
frank k wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:08 am




From a sutta perspective, if you can stand, walk, hear sounds, think verbal thoughts in satipatthana, have perception of the physical body, then you can do all of those things in first jhāna as well.
That's what MN 125 is saying.

You've not even attempted to explain how that could support a VIsm. redefinition of jhāna which can do none of those things (perceive physical body, hear sounds, think verbal thoughts, etc.).
Dear Frank
sometimes in the suttas it reads like there is the possibility of experiencing sense door objects while still in jhana, but it should be understood that the listener knew that even in first jhana one is completely away from any perception of the senses. Of course there has to be emerging from jhana before there can be any experience of sense doors. It is like in the satipatthana sutta where it says
...
Then why in MN 111 does 8th and 9th attainment require explicit emerging before experiencing sense doors and doing vipassana on past moments,
whereas the 4 jhanas
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn111/index.html#flink-9
have cetana (intention),
adhimokkha, masc. intention; resolve; fixed purpose [adhi + √mokkh + a],
describe examining past moments WHILE still in the attainment, and never emerges?

having intention and decision making power means you can continue to do vipassana WHILE in that attainment.
If you did not, then the first 7 attainments should read like the 8th and 9th, with an explicit declaration that one determines how long to abide in a disembodied frozen stupor, then emerges from the stupor and THEN can do vipassana.

as for bodily perception:
Also, MN 111, and AN 9.36 more explicitly state four jhānas have perception of rupa while in the four jhanas, whereas formless attainments do not.
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

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frank k wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:08 am

From a sutta perspective, if you can stand, walk, hear sounds, think verbal thoughts in satipatthana, have perception of the physical body, then you can do all of those things in first jhāna as well.
That's what MN 125 is saying.
Dear Frank
I will try to come back to the Vibhanga when I have more time.
For now I want to query more about equating first jhana and satipatthana. In the section on Consciousness in the Satipatthana sutta it says :

And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness?
"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust..

Do you think that section is first jhana or not and if not why not?
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:57 am
frank k wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:08 am

From a sutta perspective, if you can stand, walk, hear sounds, think verbal thoughts in satipatthana, have perception of the physical body, then you can do all of those things in first jhāna as well.
That's what MN 125 is saying.
Dear Frank
I will try to come back to the Vibhanga when I have more time.
For now I want to query more about equating first jhana and satipatthana. In the section on Consciousness in the Satipatthana sutta it says :

And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness?
"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust..

Do you think that section is first jhana or not and if not why not?
Cetana and adhimokkha, while in jhāna, can examine the mind to see if citta has lust or not.
If it has lust, then it's no longer in jhāna (if he was in jhāna).
MN 125 makes it clear with 2 satipatthana sections. The second one that is equated with first jhāna meets the criteria of sammā sankappo, verbal vitakka thoughts based on renunciation, non ill will, non harm.

AN 9.41 dives into how attention and perception of lust can invade first jhāna
https://lucid24.org/an/an09/an09-0041/index.html#s41
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