Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
BrokenBones
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 1:48 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:32 pm

😂 now we have to accept Mahayana as the true Dhamma.
No, but they do respect the texts and are sincere.
It's only hostile & sneering in your own mind. My sarcasm is generally aimed at the subject at hand while I've noticed that your reactions generally degenerate to personal attacks 😭
Just calling out bad behaviour, which your constant sneering at those with whom you disagree with is.
😂only kidding, I can take it... I've visited Wales many times.
:thumbsup:
You really can't help yourself can you?

'Bad behaviour' in your view seems to mean being truthful to the Buddha's Dhamma and giving short shrift to people polluting it.

I have no beef with Hindus, Christians and Muslims preaching their stuff... my issue is with the Buddha's Dhamma being distorted and it's plain as the nose on your face that, that is exactly what TB, Mahayana & to a lesser extent (but more injurious because it's part of the 'tradition') Abhidhamma does.

Once the Suttas and Vinaya had been recited... that was it... full stop... the Buddha's Dhamma had been proclaimed.

Commentaries are perfectly acceptable as long as the Buddha's words are adhered to; but to be included as canonical was gross hubris.

We have commentaries today. Mahasi Sayadaw & Thanissaro Bhikkhu to name two... totally different and the hearer can make their choice. I would hope that supporters of either one would draw back from including them as canonical.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:14 pm
'Bad behaviour' in your view seems to mean being truthful to the Buddha's Dhamma and giving short shrift to people polluting it.
No, just the sneering.
I have no beef with Hindus, Christians and Muslims preaching their stuff... my issue is with the Buddha's Dhamma being distorted and it's plain as the nose on your face that, that is exactly what TB, Mahayana & to a lesser extent (but more injurious because it's part of the 'tradition') Abhidhamma does.
I see lots to admire in all of those, and even your approach, but its fine if you don't agree. Not agreeing wasn't what I was addressing.
Once the Suttas and Vinaya had been recited... that was it... full stop... the Buddha's Dhamma had been proclaimed.

Commentaries are perfectly acceptable as long as the Buddha's words are adhered to; but to be included as canonical was gross hubris.

We have commentaries today. Mahasi Sayadaw & Thanissaro Bhikkhu to name two... totally different and the hearer can make their choice. I would hope that supporters of either one would draw back from including them as canonical.
The Vinaya and Suttas as we have them today were consciously edited and put together by the first community. There were some back then who, whilst not disagreeing that they contained Dhamma, made no use of them. Venerable Purāṇa for example only acknowledged the teachings he had directly heard himself from the Buddha.

"The Dhamma and Vinaya, Sirs, have been well sung by the Theras. Nevertheless, even such manner as it has been heard by me, and received by me from the very mouth of the Blessed One, in that manner will I bear it in my memory"

So whilst the Vinaya and Suttas do contain Buddhadhamma, even back then there were teachings around which weren't exactly the same as what we see in them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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frank k
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 1:39 pm
frank k wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:22 am
MN 125 equates satipatthana with first jhana.
No emerging from satipatthana is necessary to look at past dhammas, so why would you need to emerge from first jhana to do that?
Dear Frank,
so in first jhana there can be elements like lust and aversion?
MN 125 is a great sutta, it's really worth studying carefully.
In my translation, I've heavily bookmarked and annotated exactly what's going on.
If you just read the English translation of everyone else, it's easy to miss all of these important details.

https://lucid24.org/mn/mn125/index.html#3.10.3

3.8 - (5niv hindrance removal)
3.9 - (4sp satipaṭṭhāna nonstop, like elephant tethered to post)
3.10 - (do 4sp with no kāma-vitakka/thoughts of sensuality = first jhāna)
3.10.1 - (simile: 4sp satipaṭṭhāna again without kama = first jhāna → elephant trained to like and follow commands for good war elephant)
3.11 - (skip 1st jhāna, go directly to 2nd jhāna, since the previous stage of satipaṭṭhāna was first jhāna!)

What the Buddha did there, is he removed first jhana from the standard 4 jhana section (3.11), and then added a second satipatthana section (3.10) that removes lust, etc. as the equivalent of first jhāna.
The first satipatthana section (3.9) can have lust.


All four jhanas are satipatthana, but not all satipatthana are proper four jhanas if their samadhi quality is lacking.
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Eko Care
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Eko Care »

Abhidhamma Fetters and Sutta Fetters
There is a difference in the explanation of 10 fetters according to Sutta-method and Abhidhamma method.
Both ways of explanation are taken as valid by the tradition.
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robertk
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:01 pm
robertk wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 1:39 pm
frank k wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:22 am
MN 125 equates satipatthana with first jhana.
No emerging from satipatthana is necessary to look at past dhammas, so why would you need to emerge from first jhana to do that?
Dear Frank,
so in first jhana there can be elements like lust and aversion?

The first satipatthana section (3.9) can have lust.


All four jhanas are satipatthana, but not all satipatthana are proper four jhanas if their samadhi quality is lacking.
Where is this dividing line.
Here are some extracts from the satipatthana sutta. Which ones are the proper four jhanas and which is not, by your system:
And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension [,,] in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension.

O bhikkhus, in whatever manner, a clever cow-butcher or a cow-butcher's apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it by way of portions, should be sitting at the junction of a four-cross-road; in the same manner, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body, according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.'
[,,]
"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate'
[,,]
"Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.'
For instance, could someone have enough samadhi quality while speaking to be classified as first jhana?
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frank k
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:59 am ...
Where is this dividing line.
Here are some extracts from the satipatthana sutta. Which ones are the proper four jhanas and which is not, by your system:
...
For instance, could someone have enough samadhi quality while speaking to be classified as first jhana?
It's not "my system".
MN 125 is all the Buddha's words, I've only added margin notes to highlight what's easy to miss.
By deliberately adding a second 2nd satipatthana section, and removing first jhana formula, it's unqequivocally stating that 2nd satipatthana without kāma vitakka is referring to first jhana.

SN 36.11 says speech ceases in first jhana. So technically, if one vocalizes, it disqualifies as first jhana.
But someone in imperturbable 4th jhana could manifest many rupa body copies of themselves, talk to devas with those rupa copies, read the minds of devas in the form of linquistic verbal thought (vitakka), which would also technically disqualify from them from first jhana with the speaking. And disqualify them from second, third and typical 4th jhana because of the presence of vitakka.
But you certainly wouldn't say that yogi with supernormal powers was exercising samadhi below first jhana quality would you?

You should read my version of MN 119, which I've added back in all the elisions from most translations hide.
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn119/index.html#
It's the same kāya anu passana exercises as you list from MN 10 and DN 22, but the elisions show they can be done with four jhāna quality.
Note those keywords, "ekodhi" and 'samādhi' are the hallmark keywords of the second jhana formula.

So MN 10 can be done with 4 jhanas quality, or not.
And if they are done with 4j quality, then they are both jhana and satipatthana as in MN 125.
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robertk
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by robertk »

frank k wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 3:42 pm

SN 36.11 says speech ceases in first jhana. So technically, if one vocalizes, it disqualifies as first jhana.
But someone in imperturbable 4th jhana could manifest many rupa body copies of themselves, talk to devas with those rupa copies, read the minds of devas in the form of linquistic verbal thought (vitakka), which would also technically disqualify from them from first jhana with the speaking. And disqualify them from second, third and typical 4th jhana because of the presence of vitakka.
But you certainly wouldn't say that yogi with supernormal powers was exercising samadhi below first jhana quality would you?


So MN 10 can be done with 4 jhanas quality, or not.
And if they are done with 4j quality, then they are both jhana and satipatthana as in MN 125.
Dear Frank
So in the section of the Satipatthana sutta where it mentions speaking possibly it could be referring to a highly skilled yogi who makes body duplicates while in 4th jhana, and it is one of the duplicates who is speaking?

What about the other actions mentioned below, like going forwards.. looking straight on or looking away.
Could they be done while in first jhana, without the need for a duplicate?
And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension [,,] in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension
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frank k
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:11 pm ...
Dear Frank
So in the section of the Satipatthana sutta where it mentions speaking possibly it could be referring to a highly skilled yogi who makes body duplicates while in 4th jhana, and it is one of the duplicates who is speaking?

What about the other actions mentioned below, like going forwards.. looking straight on or looking away.
Could they be done while in first jhana, without the need for a duplicate?
And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension [,,] in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension
Let's back up and look at the straightforward case first.
going by MN 125, a monk is doing satipatthana sitting down, eyes closed, with occasional verbal linguistic thoughts of "may all beings be happy."
doing that, monk experiences mental joy (pīti), physical pleasure felt with the body (sukha),
singular focus (ekaggata and samādhi) on thoughts of skillful Dharma not are not kāma-vitakka, etc.

He's doing satipatthana as first jhāna concurrently according to MN 125.

Are we agreed so far, what the Buddha's words are saying in the suttas about jhāna is different than Vism.?
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Eko Care
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Eko Care »

robertk wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:55 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:52 am Scholars, who would cut a flower into a million pieces to 'see' what makes it beautiful.
Dear BrokenBones
these days - as much or even more than in the past- we are weak in understanding. The Abhidhamma and Commentaries greatly help in breaking down what we thought was lasting, what we thought was a whole.
We read about, for example, seeing in the suttas yes, but we might still think seeing lasts. The Abhidhamma hammers home the momentariness and many conditions needed for a moment of seeing to arise.
So the suttapitaka and Abhidhammapitaka are both necessary.
:goodpost:
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Radix
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Radix »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:52 amSome Buddhists take this view...

'Thus indeed is the Blessed One: he is accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, sublime, knower of the worlds, the incomparable guide of men who are tractable, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html

They take the suttas as the Supreme teachings.

Others take later teachings created by lesser people; some wise some not so wise.
How are you not taking later teachings as the Supreme Teachings??

We all came later, after the Buddha, we're all taking "later teachings". We all have an abhidhamma. You, too, have an abhidhamma. Some people just don't acknowledge this.
Caught up in schisms, petty lineage and sect power grabs or the desire for intellectual superiority.
Lol. You don't say.
Scholars, who would cut a flower into a million pieces to 'see' what makes it beautiful.
Only if you think the point of Buddhist teachings amounts to something like

Image
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Radix
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Radix »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 1:36 pm the only error might lie in my sarcastic way of posting... but hey... very few of us here are saints
So much for the efficacy of "practicing in line with the suttas ...
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Radix
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Radix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:02 pmRather than understanding that we get hostility, sneering.
The obvoious answer is that hostility and sneering are part of the teaching.
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Radix
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by Radix »

robertk wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:55 amthese days - as much or even more than in the past- we are weak in understanding. The Abhidhamma and Commentaries greatly help in breaking down what we thought was lasting, what we thought was a whole.
I think, rather, that many people nowadays are practicing a kind of superstition as far as the suttas go: they believe that the suttas are so powerful that they can be correctly understood "in and of themselves", with no additional reference text needed.
Similar to how Protestant Christians think they need nothing more than the Bible, and more importantly, that they think they're not using anything other than the Bible (when they're reading the Bible).

Of course, the extreme trust in the suttas can also be a sign of the reader's great self-confidence, as in "I'm so wonderful, surely I can correctly understand this ancient text without needing any additional guidance or explanation."

Last but not least, the suttavada approach allows one a level of freedom that the traditional approach does not. Feeling confident in oneself and deeming oneself justified to flirt with the suttas, to "dabble heavily" in them. That can be very tempting.
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cappuccino
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by cappuccino »

Radix wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 7:59 pm Of course, the extreme trust in the suttas can also be a sign of the reader's great self-confidence,
The person who distrusts himself has no touchstone for reality—for this touchstone can be only oneself. Such a person interposes between himself and reality nothing less than a labyrinth of attitudes.

― James Baldwin
BrokenBones
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Re: Sutta method and Abhidhamma method

Post by BrokenBones »

Radix wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 7:38 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 4:02 pmRather than understanding that we get hostility, sneering.
The obvoious answer is that hostility and sneering are part of the teaching.
That would appear to be the case 😂... see your & others previous posts

At least I own my sarcasm... I leave the sneering & hostility to others 👍
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