Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
Bhante,Kumara Bhikkhu wrote:For me, we should go by principles of the universal Dhamma. Remember: The Dhamma is not the same as Buddhism. How then do we know what’s “Dhamma”? To put it simply, practising the Dhamma ends suffering. So, does our understanding and practice help us to end suffering?
If yes, then for our own good we should live engaging in them. If no, then for our own good we should abandon them. And if an approach found in modern psychotherapy can solve a suffering that our current approach cannot, then why not learn from them? After all, if it does end suffering, it must be going by principles of the Dhamma.
Will Psychotherapy solve the suffering of Repeated Birth?
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
Of course not. That's not its aim.
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
Then it's as useful as a heroin overdose.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
Glenn Wallis
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
vibhavataṇhā is still taṇhā, binding you to saṁsāra
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Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
A foolish way of thinking.
A lot of psychotherapy can help with overcoming gross defilements and thus can indirectly help on the path. 'Spiritual' psychotherapy exists also.
Unless you are a monk, and even then you aren't really in a position to criticize psychotherapy as an endeavor unless you live 24/7 practicing the dhamma and the straight path to nibbana then maybe you could argue but it wouldn't apply still to the laity.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
They are alike in that they seek to put an end to or at least reduce suffering arising from the mind.
They may even start from the same point ie. to fix the 'person'.
So you have the training in generosity, virtue, sense restraint, patience.
The 10 paramis of: giving, virtue, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, determination, lovingkindness, and equanimity
The difference is perhaps where the final goal is at.
Of course the 'person' can be fixed through effort, faith, and commitment and of course a skilled therapist.
Sometimes the 'person' may be so 'broken' that they need to be 'fixed' conventionally speaking before even
introducing the Dhamma teaching! The mind must first be ready to receive the teachings.
Dana and sila before bhavana
They may even start from the same point ie. to fix the 'person'.
So you have the training in generosity, virtue, sense restraint, patience.
The 10 paramis of: giving, virtue, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, determination, lovingkindness, and equanimity
The difference is perhaps where the final goal is at.
Of course the 'person' can be fixed through effort, faith, and commitment and of course a skilled therapist.
Sometimes the 'person' may be so 'broken' that they need to be 'fixed' conventionally speaking before even
introducing the Dhamma teaching! The mind must first be ready to receive the teachings.
Dana and sila before bhavana
Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
ah.... ignore him. Some people are not worth engaging with.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 3:42 amA foolish way of thinking.
A lot of psychotherapy can help with overcoming gross defilements and thus can indirectly help on the path. 'Spiritual' psychotherapy exists also.
Unless you are a monk, and even then you aren't really in a position to criticize psychotherapy as an endeavor unless you live 24/7 practicing the dhamma and the straight path to nibbana then maybe you could argue but it wouldn't apply still to the laity.
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
How Buddhist!!
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
Glenn Wallis
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
Not just perhaps, but definitely.
Psychotherapy is all about (re)focusing the person on worldliness, on living in the manner of samsara and staying that way.
This is why, to use a gross example, it is as helpful as a heroin overdose, as far as overcoming a samsaric existence goes.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
Glenn Wallis
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
This was supposed to be a "Buddhist discussion forum", not the water cooler or the family dinner table.Cause_and_Effect wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 3:42 amUnless you are a monk, and even then you aren't really in a position to criticize psychotherapy as an endeavor unless you live 24/7 practicing the dhamma and the straight path to nibbana then maybe you could argue but it wouldn't apply still to the laity.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
Glenn Wallis
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
Psychotherapy is a specialized form of “admirable friendship”, kalyāṇamitta:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."
"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
Changing to a first-class cabin on the Titanic comes to mind. Not everyone wants to get off the ship if that is all that they have ever known. They may even prefer to go down with the ship than jump into the unknown darkness where freedom lies. And they have plenty of company in that endeavor.Radix wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:25 pmNot just perhaps, but definitely.
Psychotherapy is all about (re)focusing the person on worldliness, on living in the manner of samsara and staying that way.
This is why, to use a gross example, it is as helpful as a heroin overdose, as far as overcoming a samsaric existence goes.
But some may begin to ask the question, "Is the Titanic all there is? Why is there that empty feeling even after getting the first-class cabins?"
If you are someone who lives below deck, all that you ever dream of is to get on deck and nothing more.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
I like this part:
I guess Freud used neuroticism to refer to pathology, but it is unclear how psychotherapy does much better! In my understanding, the modern approach seems to integrate neuroticism as a personality trait rather than pathologizing it. Pathology begins where neuroticism becomes in excess, as its often described as "the salt of personality", or what gives flavor to other dimensions. As such, neuroticism is the most debatable personality trait, and within that framework, the goal of psychotherapy is to bring the patient back to a healthy science.
I guess it boils down to how nama-rupa works: what is more tangible seems always to have recourse to the less tangible, but the less tangible always have the potential to manifest itself as tangible:
1- Neuroticism is an intangible dimension of personality, but it can become tangible through manifestations of genius or madness.
2- The mind is an intangible dimension of the six sense media, but it can become tangible through predictibility, or regularities in nature that makes nature comprehensible through "laws".
3- Tastes have their recourse to what becomes known as umami, which has no quality of its own, but often referred to as savoriness. It becomes tangible through inventing Monosodium Glutamate, which is used in abundance in Chinese cuisine, and it the health side effects of using it in excess is a debatable issue as a flavor enhancer.
4- The number zero is what all numbers recourse to, as through it, we can perceive things in terms of positive and negative. It has no tangible existence, but essential in worldly affairs. It becomes tangible either through giving it a word "nama" or through inventing scales (rupa) that have their accuracy determined by having recourse to it.
The above state of affairs becomes a subject of debate among psychotherapists and spiritual circles alike (as manifested in this thread). Some would describe the aim to be maintaining the balance, and some would advocate a complete uprooting to this sorry state of affairs. And as Ajahn Chah was mentioned in the article, his famous talk about "the equanimity of water buffalo" became quite symbolic in that regard.
Sigmund Freud famously said that “The aim of psychoanalysis is to relieve people of their neurotic unhappiness so that they can be normally unhappy. That was more than 100 years ago. Nowadays, psychotherapy does much better, in that it’s able to relieve people of lesser unhappiness. ”
I guess Freud used neuroticism to refer to pathology, but it is unclear how psychotherapy does much better! In my understanding, the modern approach seems to integrate neuroticism as a personality trait rather than pathologizing it. Pathology begins where neuroticism becomes in excess, as its often described as "the salt of personality", or what gives flavor to other dimensions. As such, neuroticism is the most debatable personality trait, and within that framework, the goal of psychotherapy is to bring the patient back to a healthy science.
I guess it boils down to how nama-rupa works: what is more tangible seems always to have recourse to the less tangible, but the less tangible always have the potential to manifest itself as tangible:
1- Neuroticism is an intangible dimension of personality, but it can become tangible through manifestations of genius or madness.
2- The mind is an intangible dimension of the six sense media, but it can become tangible through predictibility, or regularities in nature that makes nature comprehensible through "laws".
3- Tastes have their recourse to what becomes known as umami, which has no quality of its own, but often referred to as savoriness. It becomes tangible through inventing Monosodium Glutamate, which is used in abundance in Chinese cuisine, and it the health side effects of using it in excess is a debatable issue as a flavor enhancer.
4- The number zero is what all numbers recourse to, as through it, we can perceive things in terms of positive and negative. It has no tangible existence, but essential in worldly affairs. It becomes tangible either through giving it a word "nama" or through inventing scales (rupa) that have their accuracy determined by having recourse to it.
The above state of affairs becomes a subject of debate among psychotherapists and spiritual circles alike (as manifested in this thread). Some would describe the aim to be maintaining the balance, and some would advocate a complete uprooting to this sorry state of affairs. And as Ajahn Chah was mentioned in the article, his famous talk about "the equanimity of water buffalo" became quite symbolic in that regard.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: Connecting Buddhism With Modern Psychotherapy
You quoted wrongly. Here's the correct version:Bundokji wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:41 pm I like this part:
Sigmund Freud famously said that “The aim of psychoanalysis is to relieve people of their neurotic unhappiness so that they can be normally unhappy. That was more than 100 years ago. Nowadays, psychotherapy does much better, in that it’s able to relieve people of lesser unhappiness. ”
Sigmund Freud famously said that “The aim of psychoanalysis is to relieve people of their neurotic unhappiness so that they can be normally unhappy.” That was more than 100 years ago. Nowadays, psychotherapy does much better, in that it’s able to relieve people of lesser unhappiness.