Jhanas and meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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jwstone
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Jhanas and meditation

Post by jwstone »

So if I understand correctly, Samatha meditation is for concentration and tranquility. Vipassana is for insight. This form, does that lead to Nibbana? Also, the Jhanas, what method reaches those? What is the purpose of the Jhanas? For one to reach Nibanna, would they have had to go through the Jhanas?

Another question I have: Are there certain guide posts to allow us to know that we are progressing in our meditation? How do we even know if we are doing it correctly or just deluding ourselves? Are there certain things we should be aware of and look for to allow us to know we are on the right track?
santa100
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by santa100 »

jwstone wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:01 pm So if I understand correctly, Samatha meditation is for concentration and tranquility. Vipassana is for insight. This form, does that lead to Nibbana? Also, the Jhanas, what method reaches those? What is the purpose of the Jhanas? For one to reach Nibanna, would they have had to go through the Jhanas?
One'd need both Samatha and Vipassana since Nibbana can only be fulfilled if the 3-training of Sila / Samadhi / Panna has been fulfilled. Samatha is mostly for one to train on Samadhi, while Vipassana is mostly for one's Panna. And obviously one'd need some solid foundation on Sila to be able to make progress on the other two.
Another question I have: Are there certain guide posts to allow us to know that we are progressing in our meditation? How do we even know if we are doing it correctly or just deluding ourselves? Are there certain things we should be aware of and look for to allow us to know we are on the right track?
While one'd probably need an experienced meditation teacher to be able to work closely with him to be able to accurately monitor the progress, there're basic straightforward metrics one could observe for themselves to see if they're on the right track in terms of meditation, like, are they feeling more serene, equanimous in the face of adversities of all kinds? are their body feeling lighter and healthier, or full of drowsiness, restlessness, and/or pains? do they get closer to any of the criteria laid out in AN 8.53? etc....
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jwstone
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by jwstone »

What exactly are samadhi and panna? Sila I believe is ethics, morality, etc, correct? Unfortunately, no idea where I would find a reliable teacher where I live, so I'm on my own in that regard.
santa100
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by santa100 »

For now we could only get a theoretical explanation about Samadhi and Panna. But it'd require a lot more time and effort to really experience them for oneself.
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nirodh27
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by nirodh27 »

jwstone wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:01 pm So if I understand correctly, Samatha meditation is for concentration and tranquility. Vipassana is for insight. This form, does that lead to Nibbana? Also, the Jhanas, what method reaches those? What is the purpose of the Jhanas? For one to reach Nibanna, would they have had to go through the Jhanas?

Another question I have: Are there certain guide posts to allow us to know that we are progressing in our meditation? How do we even know if we are doing it correctly or just deluding ourselves? Are there certain things we should be aware of and look for to allow us to know we are on the right track?
Hi jwstone,

If you want to practice Buddhadhamma and you want to reach Nibbana the meter of your success is dispassion, disenchantment towards the world and letting go of it. That will bring you Happiness, peace, release and freedom.

Bear in mind that the jhana vs vipassana is a distinction that is modern. In the sutta the practice that is presented as the practice is jhana, which is a practice about letting go of the world, something that laypeople (unless they want to live exactly as a monk) can practice only to a certain extent if they want to function in the world almost same as before (work, love, desire things and got motivation to pursue things). Look at MN19 and MN20 and the agama counterparts of MA101 and MA102 if you want to understand how the early buddhist meditation was practiced.
Last edited by nirodh27 on Thu May 25, 2023 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

jwstone wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:35 pm What exactly are samadhi and panna? Sila I believe is ethics, morality, etc, correct? Unfortunately, no idea where I would find a reliable teacher where I live, so I'm on my own in that regard.
A good start would be to learn the five precepts and start to take joy in the fact that you're keeping them.
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Kumara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by Kumara »

jwstone wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:01 pm Another question I have: Are there certain guide posts to allow us to know that we are progressing in our meditation? How do we even know if we are doing it correctly or just deluding ourselves? Are there certain things we should be aware of and look for to allow us to know we are on the right track?
Sure. See Part 3 of this book: https://bit.ly/jhana-book
pegembara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by pegembara »

jwstone wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:01 pm So if I understand correctly, Samatha meditation is for concentration and tranquility. Vipassana is for insight. This form, does that lead to Nibbana? Also, the Jhanas, what method reaches those? What is the purpose of the Jhanas? For one to reach Nibanna, would they have had to go through the Jhanas?

Another question I have: Are there certain guide posts to allow us to know that we are progressing in our meditation? How do we even know if we are doing it correctly or just deluding ourselves? Are there certain things we should be aware of and look for to allow us to know we are on the right track?
Does this sound like there is no seeing of things as they are in the jhanas and the arupas?

Jhana Sutta
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by SarathW »

jwstone wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:35 pm What exactly are samadhi and panna? Sila I believe is ethics, morality, etc, correct? Unfortunately, no idea where I would find a reliable teacher where I live, so I'm on my own in that regard.
You have to read a lot to understand this difference.
However I would say like this.
Samatha leads to Jhana which fulfil Sila and Samadhi aspect too. (First titard of Satipathana can fulfil this too)
Vipassana lead to Samadhi and fulfil the aspect of Panna. (This is basically Satipathana)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

Follow the Buddha's instructions... 'go do jhana'.

He never said... 'go do vipassana'.
SarathW
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by SarathW »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:43 am Follow the Buddha's instructions... 'go do jhana'.

He never said... 'go do vipassana'.
Please some Sutta support.
Buddha encouraged both Samatha and Vipassana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:58 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:43 am Follow the Buddha's instructions... 'go do jhana'.

He never said... 'go do vipassana'.
Please some Sutta support.
Buddha encouraged both Samatha and Vipassana.
It's a stock phrase found throughout the suttas...

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Now, can you supply me with a sutta where the Buddha urges his monks 'to go do vipassana'?

Insight is the instrument & means for 'Right' jhana to arise.
SarathW
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by SarathW »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:27 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:58 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:43 am Follow the Buddha's instructions... 'go do jhana'.

He never said... 'go do vipassana'.
Please some Sutta support.
Buddha encouraged both Samatha and Vipassana.
It's a stock phrase found throughout the suttas...

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Now, can you supply me with a sutta where the Buddha urges his monks 'to go do vipassana'?

Insight is the instrument & means for 'Right' jhana to arise.
:goodpost:

BUT
Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.
Buddha is not talking about Nibbana.
He is talking about the cessation of Kamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:27 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:58 am

Please some Sutta support.
Buddha encouraged both Samatha and Vipassana.
It's a stock phrase found throughout the suttas...

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Now, can you supply me with a sutta where the Buddha urges his monks 'to go do vipassana'?

Insight is the instrument & means for 'Right' jhana to arise.
:goodpost:

BUT
Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.
Buddha is not talking about Nibbana.
He is talking about the cessation of Kamma.
🤷‍♂️ I don't know where to begin... 🤔 I think I'll leave it
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by confusedlayman »

I think it is impossible to reach even cula sotapanna without jhana ..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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