Jhanas and meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
pegembara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by pegembara »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:35 pm I think it is impossible to reach even cula sotapanna without jhana ..
And so were these monks who must have been in jhana doing "formal meditation" as we nowadays seem to think is necessary for jhanas?
Or could it be that the jhanas are not exactly the type of absorptions some think that they are?
Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Gaya, at Gayasisa, together with a thousand bhikkhus. There he addressed the bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?


That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were glad, and they approved his words.

Now during his utterance, the hearts of those thousand bhikkhus were liberated from taints through clinging no more.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .nymo.html
Now at that time Ven. Sariputta was sitting[2] behind the Blessed One, fanning him. The thought occurred to him, "Indeed, it seems that the Blessed One speaks to us of the abandoning of each of these mental qualities through direct knowledge.[3] Indeed, it seems that the One Well-gone speaks to us of the relinquishing of each of these mental qualities through direct knowledge."[4] As Ven. Sariputta was reflecting thus, his mind was released from fermentations through not-clinging. While in LongNails the wanderer there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Then the Blessed One discoursed to him a graduated sermon, that is to say, he spoke on the subjects of liberality, virtue, the heavens, on the evil consequences, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures and on the advantages of renunciation.

When the Blessed One perceived that the mind of Upāli, the householder, was prepared, pliant, free from hindrances (vi-nīvara­ṇa­-cittaṃ), elevated and lucid, then he revealed to him that exalted doctrine of the Buddhas, viz. Suffering, its Cause, its Ceasing and the Path.

Just as a clean cloth, free from stain, would take the dye perfectly, even so, to Upāli, the householder, whilst seated in that place, there arose (in him) the spotless, stainless vision of Truth. He knew: Whatsoever has causally arisen must inevitably pass utterly away.’

Then Upāli, the householder, having thus, in the Dispensation of the Exalted One seen the Truth; attained to the Truth; comprehended the Truth, penetrated the Truth, overcome doubt; cast off uncertainty and gained full confidence without dependence on another.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Kumara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

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BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:27 pm It's a stock phrase found throughout the suttas...

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And do you know what it means, and what "practice jhana" is translated from?
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 2:49 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:27 pm It's a stock phrase found throughout the suttas...

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And do you know what it means, and what "practice jhana" is translated from?
Jhayati... go and contemplate what has just been said... what else could it mean?

"Jhāyati, 1 (Sk. dhyāyati, dhī; with dhīra, dhīḥ from didheti shine, perceive; ... to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over..."

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/jhayati

I admit it flies in the face of what is now thought of as 'meditation' or 'jhana'... but I'm a simple person who takes the suttas at face value.
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Kumara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by Kumara »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:02 am
Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 2:49 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:27 pm It's a stock phrase found throughout the suttas...

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And do you know what it means, and what "practice jhana" is translated from?
Jhayati... go and contemplate what has just been said... what else could it mean?

"Jhāyati, 1 (Sk. dhyāyati, dhī; with dhīra, dhīḥ from didheti shine, perceive; ... to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over..."

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/jhayati
OR, we could just translate it plainly and literally as ”Meditate, monks."
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:21 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:02 am
Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 2:49 am

And do you know what it means, and what "practice jhana" is translated from?
Jhayati... go and contemplate what has just been said... what else could it mean?

"Jhāyati, 1 (Sk. dhyāyati, dhī; with dhīra, dhīḥ from didheti shine, perceive; ... to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over..."

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/jhayati
OR, we could just translate it plainly and literally as ”Meditate, monks."
I am under the impression that Jhāyati plainly and literally refers to jhana... the word that modern translators like to translate as 'meditation'... which leads to all sorts of misunderstandings.

If I'm wrong about this then I will gladly acknowledge it... I'm no Pali expert (or even a beginner).
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Kumara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by Kumara »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:26 am
Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:21 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:02 am

Jhayati... go and contemplate what has just been said... what else could it mean?

"Jhāyati, 1 (Sk. dhyāyati, dhī; with dhīra, dhīḥ from didheti shine, perceive; ... to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over..."

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/jhayati
OR, we could just translate it plainly and literally as ”Meditate, monks."
I am under the impression that Jhāyati plainly and literally refers to jhana... the word that modern translators like to translate as 'meditation'... which leads to all sorts of misunderstandings.
It's the opposite. Look under subheading "jhana" in this book: https://bit.ly/jhana-book
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:00 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:26 am
Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:21 am

OR, we could just translate it plainly and literally as ”Meditate, monks."
I am under the impression that Jhāyati plainly and literally refers to jhana... the word that modern translators like to translate as 'meditation'... which leads to all sorts of misunderstandings.
It's the opposite. Look under subheading "jhana" in this book: https://bit.ly/jhana-book
I'm sorry I can't see it meaning the 'opposite'. What does the opposite actually entail?

I concede that people like to translate jhana as meditation... but not for me... it loses so much.

The Buddha instructs his monks and then tells them to go do jhana (I can't see the issue).

For clarification, I'll reinstate my reference...

"Jhāyati, 1 (Sk. dhyāyati, dhī; with dhīra, dhīḥ from didheti shine, perceive; ... to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over..."



https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/jhayati

The Buddha hasn't merely dismissed them and told them to go think about things or concentrate on their nose tip. He's been much clearer... go do jhana (obviously using the teachings he's just given). Thinking would be involved but the process of using it for jhana is taught elsewhere; Dvedhavitakka Sutta is a good example.
pegembara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by pegembara »

If you follow the scheme in Cullavedalla, it kind of corresponds to direct experience when doing anapanasati.
The breath stills, then thinking stops while still concentrating on the breath, then the sensation of breathing also stops ie breath body.
You can still hear sounds. Eventually, everything ceases(what is that?).
Then you first notice sounds, then breathing and finally thinking restarts.

How this relates to jhana, I am not sure.
"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]
"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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frank k
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by frank k »

Dear Ven. Kumara,
There's nothing wrong with using the same word (jhāyati, jhāna) as the Buddha did.
I believe the issue you have is when you see the word 'jhāna', you think it's referring to VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhāna).
B. Thanissaro leaves jhāna untranslated, so there is already an established precedent for 20 years or more for leaving jhāna untranslated, referring to the Buddha's jhāna, not VRJ.
I also leave 'jhāna' untranslated, following Ven. T.
I agree with you that 'meditate' is a good translation, but the problem with that is Sujato and others, translate many terms with 'meditate', such as bhāvana, viharati, and other words.

If we are going to quibble about word choices and translations, one issue I have with your book is when you refer to LBT (late Buddhist Text version of Theravada) as "orthodox".
or·tho·dox
adjective
1.
(of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.
Technically, your use of 'orthodox' meets the definition ("traditionally accepted as true" because Vism. is more popular and became "traditional"), but the problem is IMO by referring to them as orthodox, then you, I, Thanissaro, and others, are what, heretics? Unorthodox?
Out of respect for the Buddha, we should refer to EBT suttas as "orthodox", and those that came later and contradict the 'orthodox', should not be called orthodox. I call them LBT for accuracy and more politically friendly term, rather than refer to them as what they actually are.



Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:00 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:26 am
Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:21 am

OR, we could just translate it plainly and literally as ”Meditate, monks."
I am under the impression that Jhāyati plainly and literally refers to jhana... the word that modern translators like to translate as 'meditation'... which leads to all sorts of misunderstandings.
It's the opposite. Look under subheading "jhana" in this book: https://bit.ly/jhana-book
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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mikenz66
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:43 am Follow the Buddha's instructions... 'go do jhana'.

He never said... 'go do vipassana'.
Well, of course, is it certainly arguable that vipassana is the result, not the practice. But it is certainly to be developed, and important.
https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/s ... ript=latin
“These two things play a part in realization.
“Dve me, bhikkhave, dhammā vijjābhāgiyā.
What two?
Katame dve?
Serenity and discernment.
Samatho ca vipassanā ca.

What is the benefit of developing serenity?
Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kamatthamanubhoti? Variant: kamatthamanubhoti → kimattha … (sya-all, km); katamattha … (mr)
The mind is developed.
Cittaṁ bhāvīyati.
What is the benefit of developing the mind?
Cittaṁ bhāvitaṁ kamatthamanubhoti?
Greed is given up.
Yo rāgo so pahīyati.

What is the benefit of developing discernment?
Vipassanā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?
Wisdom is developed.
Paññā bhāvīyati.
What is the benefit of developing wisdom?
Paññā bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?
Ignorance is given up.
Yā avijjā sā pahīyati.

The mind contaminated by greed is not free; and wisdom contaminated by ignorance does not grow.
Rāgupakkiliṭṭhaṁ vā, bhikkhave, cittaṁ na vimuccati, avijjupakkiliṭṭhā vā paññā na bhāvīyati.
In this way, freedom of heart comes from the fading away of greed, while freedom by wisdom comes from the fading away of ignorance.”
Iti kho, bhikkhave, rāgavirāgā cetovimutti, avijjāvirāgā paññāvimuttī”ti.
And also: AN4.94: https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world.
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ.
What four?
Katame cattāro?

One person has internal serenity of heart, but not the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa, na lābhī adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.
One person has the higher wisdom of discernment of principles, but not internal serenity of heart.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī hoti adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa.
One person has neither internal serenity of heart, nor the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo na ceva lābhī hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa na ca lābhī adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.
One person has both internal serenity of heart, and the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī ceva hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa lābhī ca adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.

[Continues with instuctions to ask someone how to develop what is missing...]
And, arguably, much of the SN is about vipassana - analysis of elements, noble truths, etc, etc.

:heart:
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Kumara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by Kumara »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:23 am
Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:00 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:26 am

I am under the impression that Jhāyati plainly and literally refers to jhana... the word that modern translators like to translate as 'meditation'... which leads to all sorts of misunderstandings.
It's the opposite. Look under subheading "jhana" in this book: https://bit.ly/jhana-book
I'm sorry I can't see it meaning the 'opposite'. What does the opposite actually entail?

I concede that people like to translate jhana as meditation... but not for me... it loses so much.
Actually, most people (for now) don't like to translate it as meditation. Anyway, I don't see how we can discuss further unless you look further into the matter.
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by Kumara »

frank k wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:37 pm Dear Ven. Kumara,
There's nothing wrong with using the same word (jhāyati, jhāna) as the Buddha did.
Of course.
I believe the issue you have is when you see the word 'jhāna', you think it's referring to VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhāna).
No. I was objecting to translating "jhāyati" as "practice jhana", when we can literally and plainly translate it as "meditate".
I agree with you that 'meditate' is a good translation, but the problem with that is Sujato and others, translate many terms with 'meditate', such as bhāvana, viharati, and other words.
That's their problem, not mine.
If we are going to quibble about word choices and translations, one issue I have with your book is when you refer to LBT (late Buddhist Text version of Theravada) as "orthodox".
or·tho·dox
adjective
1.
(of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.
Technically, your use of 'orthodox' meets the definition ("traditionally accepted as true" because Vism. is more popular and became "traditional"), but the problem is IMO by referring to them as orthodox, then you, I, Thanissaro, and others, are what, heretics? Unorthodox?
Relatively, yes, of course.
Out of respect for the Buddha, we should refer to EBT suttas as "orthodox", and those that came later and contradict the 'orthodox', should not be called orthodox. I call them LBT for accuracy and more politically friendly term, rather than refer to them as what they actually are.

Let me quote the definition you provided: "generally or traditionally accepted as right or true". What do you think it's now is "generally or traditionally accepted as right or true" wrt "jhana"?
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

Kumara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:23 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:23 am
Kumara wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:00 am

It's the opposite. Look under subheading "jhana" in this book: https://bit.ly/jhana-book
I'm sorry I can't see it meaning the 'opposite'. What does the opposite actually entail?

I concede that people like to translate jhana as meditation... but not for me... it loses so much.
Actually, most people (for now) don't like to translate it as meditation. Anyway, I don't see how we can discuss further unless you look further into the matter.
To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what you're wishing to discuss or what the 'opposite' means. I'm certainly willing to look further into the 'matter' if you could be specific about the issue you see. I'm perplexed 😀
pegembara
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by pegembara »

For some reason the image of a calm lake with ripples on the surface comes to mind.
When the surface of the lake settles(samatho) the ripples becomes more discrete(discernment).
Without samatho, there can be no discernment. It is all a jumbled mess.
Wisdom(panna) is realising that the rippling is anicca, dukkha and the result of causes and conditions (anatta).
The mind that sees clearly is gradually freed from greed, aversion, and delusion realizes the peace of nibbana.

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the calming of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all ... the ending of craving; dispassion; unbinding; Nibbana."
“These two things play a part in realization.
“Dve me, bhikkhave, dhammā vijjābhāgiyā.
What two?
Katame dve?
Serenity and discernment.
Samatho ca vipassanā ca.

What is the benefit of developing serenity?
Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kamatthamanubhoti? Variant: kamatthamanubhoti → kimattha … (sya-all, km); katamattha … (mr)
The mind is developed.
Cittaṁ bhāvīyati.
What is the benefit of developing the mind?
Cittaṁ bhāvitaṁ kamatthamanubhoti?
Greed is given up.
Yo rāgo so pahīyati.

What is the benefit of developing discernment?
Vipassanā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?
Wisdom is developed.
Paññā bhāvīyati.
What is the benefit of developing wisdom?
Paññā bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?
Ignorance is given up.
Yā avijjā sā pahīyati.

The mind contaminated by greed is not free; and wisdom contaminated by ignorance does not grow.
Rāgupakkiliṭṭhaṁ vā, bhikkhave, cittaṁ na vimuccati, avijjupakkiliṭṭhā vā paññā na bhāvīyati.
In this way, freedom of heart comes from the fading away of greed, while freedom by wisdom comes from the fading away of ignorance.”
Iti kho, bhikkhave, rāgavirāgā cetovimutti, avijjāvirāgā paññāvimuttī”ti.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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frank k
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Re: Jhanas and meditation

Post by frank k »

Kumara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:32 am ...
Let me quote the definition you provided: "generally or traditionally accepted as right or true". What do you think it's now is "generally or traditionally accepted as right or true" wrt "jhana"?
I don't really know, but I doubt you could speak for the entire modern world.
I have no doubt that in your circles, they are majority LBT Theravadans who take Vism. as the primary source of authoritative knowledge, so their definition of jhāna would probably closer to VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana).

But worldwide English speakers, have been reading Thanissaro's books for decades, and they understand jhana as the Buddha's definition of jhana.


The more important point, that I didn't get across clearly in the previous msg., is that when you refer to LBT Theravadans as 'orthodox', you're helping to perpetuate a perception of their legitimacy as the authoritative word of the Buddha,

whereas common sense, ethics, dictate that the earliest words of the Buddha are the most authoratative,
and any LBT reinterpretations that came later, that deviate from the Buddha's, are not orthodox in any way, to say the least.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
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