Meaning of "percipient of light"

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Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:37 pm
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html wrote: 9. And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.
For one who has mastered the jhana, he can move around like stretching the arm simile.

This is just to say he started from 1st jhana.

When vitakka vicara is ceased, one already in 2nd jhana with piti,
Then piti ceased, one already in 3rd jhana, sukha is present. And so on.

There is no exiting 1st jhana then go back to sensual realm, then jump from sensual realm back to 3rd jhana by passing 1st & 2nd jhana etc. This is wrong understanding. It needs to progress from coarse to subtle automatically.

It is just process of progression from coarse state to the most subtle till cessation. And back down again. Higher jhana can only be achieved with less activities. One needs to observe the process. Eventually everything is stop up to ayu sankhara is also ceased for parinibbana.
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frank k
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by frank k »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:31 am ...
Joe you have some very confused ideas about jhāna, I don't have time, interest, or energy to discuss with you.
But one very obvious problem that even people who don't do jhāna can probably spot,
Even the Buddha had bad backaches and physical pain after attaining jhāna.
Suttas even talk about monks losing some of their jhāna because of physical health problems.
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auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:31 am Viharati = people try to translate enter and emerging. There is no emerging. It is just enter and lives with it daily 24/7.
the term is
vuṭṭhahitvā
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vu%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADhahitv%C4%81/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
vuṭṭhahitvā:[abs.of vuṭṭhahati] having risen; having arisen; having emerged from.
I am open to different ideas. I considers yours as an option.

But i think the mindstream of 1st jhana comes to an end and the bhavanga resumes and then bhavanga gets interrupted again to then 2nd jhana mindstream to emerge what allows 2nd jhana citta to function
(based on Dr Mehm Tin Mon take)


Your theory have things missing, you have less things to worry to be correct about.
auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:31 am Look at the instruction before jhana formula for abandoning nivarana (bad thoughts/qualities & sensual pleasures). These are just a simile to make sure one can't miss when one has known the jhana
(samma samadhi).
There are cittas what are experienced in sensual realm. From past kamma.

And of course one needs be inclined to seclusion(viveka, however one likes translate it) away from kama to be enter jhana. But i think the kama is still focused on, just the mind is inclined towards seclusion while at it.
Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

frank k wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:17 am Joe you have some very confused ideas about jhāna, I don't have time, interest, or energy to discuss with you.
Hah. It should be the other way around. 🤣😂
But one very obvious problem that even people who don't do jhāna can probably spot,
No. People who is blind won’t know jhana (samma samadhi). Blind one can’t even keep the precepts unblemished, let alone figure out things such as samma samadhi.

Also, If they know & fulfilled samma samadhi, they will be at least Non Returner or higher. Not just a stream enterer.
Even the Buddha had bad backaches and physical pain after attaining jhāna.
Suttas even talk about monks losing some of their jhāna because of physical health problems.
Like i said blind one won’t know. They think Buddha and all those arahant just sit and meditate all day long. They are not. They are moving around the india to teach others about true dhamma.

Using a lot of physical body or teach just take a toll for the body, one can’t maintain high jhana.

Anyway. This all needs to be understood. Not just sit 5-6 hours thinking they have reach samma samadhi. 😅😅😅 then when they are off, they go back to work and earn money for a living, have family, and break precepts. 😅😅😅 that is delusional meditation.
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Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:06 pm There are cittas what are experienced in sensual realm. From past kamma.

And of course one needs be inclined to seclusion(viveka, however one likes translate it) away from kama to be enter jhana. But i think the kama is still focused on, just the mind is inclined towards seclusion while at it.
Well this is just your speculation.

As i said before, there won’t be 2 sanna that one can focused on at the time. It is either kamasanna or higher sanna (rupasanna or ayatana/arupa). When one already know samma samadhi, the mind will automatically incline toward seclusion and will reject sensual pleasures that excite the 5 senses.

Here is the Sutta that Buddha said clearly for an ariya (stream enterer who hasn’t fulfilled the samma samadhi) will still return to sensual pleasure (aka if they died without knowing piti/sukha & maintain the jhana, they will comeback to human world in future).

But non returner and above will never return because here and now their mind has let go the sensual pleasure because of achieving finer pleasure (piti, sukha, or other finer)
MN 14 wrote:…Sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks.

Even though a noble disciple (ariya savaka, stream enterer & above) has clearly seen this with right wisdom,

so long as they don’t achieve the piti and sukha that are apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities, or something even more peaceful than that, they might still return to sensual pleasures.

But when they do achieve that piti and sukha, or something more peaceful than that, they will not return to sensual pleasures. ….
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Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:57 pm vuṭṭhahitvā
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vu%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADhahitv%C4%81/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
vuṭṭhahitvā:[abs.of vuṭṭhahati] having risen; having arisen; having emerged from.
Let me look at this term more carefully with more sutta. But emerging and exit jhana from one to another is just crazy. Looks like an amateurish that don’t know jhana/samma samadhi.
But i think the mindstream of 1st jhana comes to an end and the bhavanga resumes and then bhavanga gets interrupted again to then 2nd jhana mindstream to emerge what allows 2nd jhana citta to function
(based on Dr Mehm Tin Mon take)

Your theory have things missing, you have less things to worry to be correct about.
Well let me ask you, if someone die at bhavanga state, where the heck will they go? There is no bhavanga realm in higher realm. You know that right. In higher realm, everything occur instantly such as birth, death.

Also can’t even find any bhavanga explanation in Sutta. Clearly someone not knowing created the term to confuse people.
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auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:32 pm
auto wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:06 pm There are cittas what are experienced in sensual realm. From past kamma.

And of course one needs be inclined to seclusion(viveka, however one likes translate it) away from kama to be enter jhana. But i think the kama is still focused on, just the mind is inclined towards seclusion while at it.
Well this is just your speculation.

As i said before, there won’t be 2 sanna that one can focused on at the time. It is either kamasanna or higher sanna (rupasanna or ayatana/arupa). When one already know samma samadhi, the mind will automatically incline toward seclusion and will reject sensual pleasures that excite the 5 senses.
When mind is inclined towards seclusion, it doesn't mean it is jhana. So no two sanna's.
Joe.c wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:32 pm But non returner and above will never return because here and now their mind has let go the sensual pleasure because of achieving finer pleasure (piti, sukha, or other finer)
The noble right view is that there is no rebirth, no going back to living a lesser life. The rebirth is the savaka means, where's the result is experienced first, then going back to realize the noble right view what is the factor of a path, thus acquire the n8fp by your own insight.
Vitakkavicara is noble right thought, acquired as a factor of a path, beyond rebirth. - if you have acquired first jhana then it is what that means.
Dhammapardon
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Dhammapardon »

Thank you all for the responses. Not much to add yet but I am enjoying the conversation. :anjali:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:01 pm When mind is inclined towards seclusion, it doesn't mean it is jhana. So no two sanna's.
Are you saying that even though you are in seclusion, but your mind is still fill with Kama (Sensual pleasure)? If not, please explain. As Buddha said many times, his mind (that have understood jhana) will incline towards seclusion & worry about the world hence teach other that want to learn.

If it is, well, that is not samma samadhi/sati that Buddha taught.

Because to be in jhana, one needs to be totally detached (off) from sensual pleasure initially. If the nivarana is still fully on your mind, well that is not samma samadhi. And samma samadhi is used to get rid of nivarana and break off from 5 lower bonds & possibly higher bonds as well, stop the defilements (asavas) permanently. If the samadhi is not doing that, well that is just a wrong samadhi.

But once one know the jhana/samma samadhi and able to maintain it in daily life (24/7), there is no need any seclusion anymore especially 2nd jhana & up. Seclusion has become automatic.
AN 8.30 wrote:... This teaching’s for the secluded, not those who enjoy company. ...
you wrote: The noble right view is that there is no rebirth, no going back to living a lesser life. The rebirth is the savaka means, where's the result is experienced first, then going back to realize the noble right view what is the factor of a path, thus acquire the n8fp by your own insight.
Vitakkavicara is noble right thought, acquired as a factor of a path, beyond rebirth. - if you have acquired first jhana then it is what that means.
No need to acquire/fulfill 1st jhana yet for right view. But mind needs to be in 1st jhana or higher (temporary) to understand true dhamma for stream enterer. So when ariya is talking, the hearer mind needs to be in 1st jhana or higher. Not easy to achieve for one who keep breaking precepts in daily life, even a householder.

Btw, A stream enterer will go back to lesser life (sensual realm) because they haven't achieved piti/sukha or finer pleasure. This is why they will comeback up to 7 times (the longest) to develop the samadhi/sati part.

See example of below:
AN 6.55 wrote:...Yet my mind is not freed from defilements by not grasping. But my family has wealth. I could enjoy that wealth and make merit.

Why don’t I resign the training and return to a lesser life, so I can enjoy my wealth and make merit?’”
...
After advising Soṇa like this, the Buddha, as easily as a strong person would extend or contract their arm, vanished from the Cool Grove and reappeared on the Vulture’s Peak.

After some time Soṇa applied himself to energy and serenity, found a balance of the faculties, and learned the pattern of this situation.

Then Soṇa, living alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute, soon realized the supreme culmination of the spiritual path in this very life.
N8FP is not by own insight blindly, one needs to know/SEE the path from other ariya first by hearing true dhamma from them. Once know conceptually, then the work begin to develop own insight based on your understanding, usually start from perfecting precepts & realize the result of keeping precepts. Keep comparing the path with the dhamma that has been explained till mind is completely free. Hearing true dhamma continuously is also possible to make the mind free by wisdom.

This is why all ariya will have these 3 confidence confirmation + perfected precepts that lead to samadhi:
1. Itipiso Bhagava Araham Samma Sambuddho ... There is a Blessed one, a Bond breaker, Fully Awaken one
2. Svākhāto Bhagavatā Dhammo ... Teaching of Buddha is clear and concise (no need commentary)
3. Supaṭipanno Bhagavato Sāvakasaṅgho ... (Ariya) Sangha has been practicing in good/correct way.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:33 am
auto wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:01 pm When mind is inclined towards seclusion, it doesn't mean it is jhana. So no two sanna's.
Are you saying that even though you are in seclusion, but your mind is still fill with Kama (Sensual pleasure)? If not, please explain. As Buddha said many times, his mind (that have understood jhana) will incline towards seclusion & worry about the world hence teach other that want to learn.
You stay secluded from 5 sense stimulation till the mind will have an object. You can still do whatever daily activities if they don't disrupt the mind from obtaining the mental object.
The mental object interrupts the bhavanga, during that small window of time there occurs a ripening(vipakka) of an experience which is connected to an attachment(to an actual real world object).
After what one starts feel craving, desire. Craving isn't even felt if not have that happen. Hence one needs change in lineage moment, where the mind goes over from kama to rupa realm.
Thus, when mind start incline towards seclusion then instead of craving, the sensation is felt bare. But that bare sensation is still emanating the craving as like hell is let loose.
Joe.c
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:57 pm You stay secluded from 5 sense stimulation till the mind will have an object. You can still do whatever daily activities if they don't disrupt the mind from obtaining the mental object.
The mental object interrupts the bhavanga, during that small window of time there occurs a ripening(vipakka) of an experience which is connected to an attachment(to an actual real world object).
After what one starts feel craving, desire. Craving isn't even felt if not have that happen. Hence one needs change in lineage moment, where the mind goes over from kama to rupa realm.
Thus, when mind start incline towards seclusion then instead of craving, the sensation is felt bare. But that bare sensation is still emanating the craving as like hell is let loose.
I think this is why abhidhamma confused people with the 14-16 nana (… gotrabu,magga, phala nana) through mediation only. They think they can switch lineage with mediation alone. I have looked before, they are so so off from sutta. Can’t find any correlation with sutta. Only lead to papanca unfortunately. There are so many confusing elements that seems like even a stream enterer is so so so so difficult.

Also, There is no bhavanga realm. Higher realm is instantaneous and can/need to be experienced now to know clearly.

Hm, What is bare sensation with emanating craving???? If one has perfected/understood precepts, there is no craving even to break the precepts that lead to lower realms. No need jhana to do this. Even an outsider may have perfected precepts.

If one is realizing sensual heaven now (cultivate precepts & dana or result from past deeds), the mind and body experience is like in sensual heaven now. One will be very rich, powerful, have wife(s), multiple or more houses, millionaire/billionaire, successful businesses. Only enjoying the pleasure of 5 senses, eventually one will get bored by this pleasure. No need jhana to do this, just dana & precepts will do. This is when one might want to move on to jhana. See Buddha and others. Give up sensual pleasure and do sense restraint + samadhi.

If one is in jhana(samma samadhi), their mind will be like in brahma realm. Totally off from sensual realm. Even when the eye, ear, tongue are used, completely no effect to the mind (aka Upekkha if it is in forth jhana). Even have no money is ok. If one has wife, it is ok to let go the wife, children etc. no pleasure at all to human world or other materialistic. Because the mind will always stay in piti/sukha or finer mode all day long 24/7.

In real Buddha teaching, none of those changing of lineage. The change of lineage is by focusing the mind into hearing through true dhamma from ariya. Then, one is understood, maintain the dhamma into real life until the fruit of the dhamma is realized. Fruit is realized, the confidence is confirmed. One can tested it over and over. And move to next stage etc.

If you would have said, i have heard dhamma from this monk with focus attention (yoniso manasikara) -sati. And i have analyzed with my thoughts (vitakka) about the monk & the dhamma as truthful as how he explain and do as he is (dhammavicaya). (Aka vijjacaranasampano). Hearing the dhamma lead my mind into piti/pasadhi/samadhi. Then, i want to follow and practice the dhamma in real life. Also i can find the explanation in Sutta. Then your confidence grow in the Buddha, dhamma and ariya sangha. I would have believe you if i can analyze the monk/person/sutta as well.

As many sutta said, a stream enterer has no need to fulfill jhana(samma samadhi yet).

Anyway, if let say one has jhana, one might want to test the senses to check how the mind behave without any mediation. In real life, see if there is any interest to sex, movie, food, music, smell, body touch (massages), money, fear, any emotional distress, etc etc.

Seclusion doesn’t mean one is in jhana. But one is in jhana will always/mostly in seclusion.

Btw, I’m still looking at those experts in abhidhamma to verify. Is it true that they have understood even the lower teaching or not? Let alone a higher teaching. But if you do, please let me know.
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auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:47 am ..
Perfect your precepts.
But know that there is reoccurring cycles, you can sit a long time, but you give up at some point due difficulty of the sensation what arises and start over. With training you can notice that sensation earlier and gets easier and if you get far enough there is opened a psychic point which rises your reproductive energy quota and then you experience intense craving and morality downfall for a while. And this itself is a stage what can be overcome like its nothing, but as long you cycle within that you are subject to it.
Pictorially if your reproductive energy rises prematurely then you are so heated up you would actually go outside and try get laid, anything goes.

If i meditate, i get the sensation out, what i previously didn't even know that there were such. Gaining concentration on it also takes rigorous disciplined work.
There are things what complete, something big happen again, in many months intervals.

Doesn't sound like it is in sutta, yeah so? it is advanged, i start with nothing too like you are right now. I should actually talk about noob stuff, but i assume from what you talking you must be good, i guess i was wrong.
Joe.c wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:47 am Anyway, if let say one has jhana, one might want to test the senses to check how the mind behave without any mediation. In real life, see if there is any interest to sex, movie, food, music, smell, body touch (massages), money, fear, any emotional distress, etc etc.
you are following the model where meditation does you numb, instead of reacting so fast that it doesn't reach into mundane ground.
auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:47 am If you would have said, i have heard dhamma from this monk with focus attention (yoniso manasikara) -sati. And i have analyzed with my thoughts (vitakka) about the monk & the dhamma as truthful as how he explain and do as he is (dhammavicaya). (Aka vijjacaranasampano). Hearing the dhamma lead my mind into piti/pasadhi/samadhi. Then, i want to follow and practice the dhamma in real life. Also i can find the explanation in Sutta. Then your confidence grow in the Buddha, dhamma and ariya sangha. I would have believe you if i can analyze the monk/person/sutta as well.
Problem is what kind of understanding you have about passadhi. What you tell aren't on point instruction, there is no reference point to real life sign of what passadhi, or samadhi are.
And its not how confidence in buddha grow, it is just text what can be understood all sorts of various ways. Learn what on point instructions are.
auto
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Re: Meaning of "percipient of light"

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:45 pm
auto wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:57 pm vuṭṭhahitvā
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vu%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADhahitv%C4%81/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
vuṭṭhahitvā:[abs.of vuṭṭhahati] having risen; having arisen; having emerged from.
Let me look at this term more carefully with more sutta. But emerging and exit jhana from one to another is just crazy. Looks like an amateurish that don’t know jhana/samma samadhi.
Have you looked up that term? the things you say like emerging from jhana is amateurish, i think with saying those things you can't come to the agreement that there is emerging, you going to be the 24/7 guy a very long time.
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