auto wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:57 pm
You stay secluded from 5 sense stimulation till the mind will have an object. You can still do whatever daily activities if they don't disrupt the mind from obtaining the mental object.
The mental object interrupts the bhavanga, during that small window of time there occurs a ripening(vipakka) of an experience which is connected to an attachment(to an actual real world object).
After what one starts feel craving, desire. Craving isn't even felt if not have that happen. Hence one needs change in lineage moment, where the mind goes over from kama to rupa realm.
Thus, when mind start incline towards seclusion then instead of craving, the sensation is felt bare. But that bare sensation is still emanating the craving as like hell is let loose.
I think this is why abhidhamma confused people with the 14-16 nana (… gotrabu,magga, phala nana) through mediation only. They think they can switch lineage with mediation alone. I have looked before, they are so so off from sutta. Can’t find any correlation with sutta. Only lead to papanca unfortunately. There are so many confusing elements that seems like even a stream enterer is so so so so difficult.
Also, There is no bhavanga realm. Higher realm is instantaneous and can/need to be experienced now to know clearly.
Hm, What is bare sensation with emanating craving???? If one has perfected/understood precepts, there is no craving even to break the precepts that lead to lower realms. No need jhana to do this. Even an outsider may have perfected precepts.
If one is realizing sensual heaven now (cultivate precepts & dana or result from past deeds), the mind and body experience is like in sensual heaven now. One will be very rich, powerful, have wife(s), multiple or more houses, millionaire/billionaire, successful businesses. Only enjoying the pleasure of 5 senses, eventually one will get bored by this pleasure. No need jhana to do this, just dana & precepts will do. This is when one might want to move on to jhana. See Buddha and others. Give up sensual pleasure and do sense restraint + samadhi.
If one is in jhana(samma samadhi), their mind will be like in brahma realm. Totally off from sensual realm. Even when the eye, ear, tongue are used, completely no effect to the mind (aka Upekkha if it is in forth jhana). Even have no money is ok. If one has wife, it is ok to let go the wife, children etc. no pleasure at all to human world or other materialistic. Because the mind will always stay in piti/sukha or finer mode all day long 24/7.
In real Buddha teaching, none of those changing of lineage. The change of lineage is by focusing the mind into hearing through true dhamma from ariya. Then, one is understood, maintain the dhamma into real life until the fruit of the dhamma is realized. Fruit is realized, the confidence is confirmed. One can tested it over and over. And move to next stage etc.
If you would have said, i have heard dhamma from this monk with focus attention (yoniso manasikara) -sati. And i have analyzed with my thoughts (vitakka) about the monk & the dhamma as truthful as how he explain and do as he is (dhammavicaya). (Aka vijjacaranasampano). Hearing the dhamma lead my mind into piti/pasadhi/samadhi. Then, i want to follow and practice the dhamma in real life. Also i can find the explanation in Sutta. Then your confidence grow in the Buddha, dhamma and ariya sangha. I would have believe you if i can analyze the monk/person/sutta as well.
As many sutta said, a stream enterer has no need to fulfill jhana(samma samadhi yet).
Anyway, if let say one has jhana, one might want to test the senses to check how the mind behave without any mediation. In real life, see if there is any interest to sex, movie, food, music, smell, body touch (massages), money, fear, any emotional distress, etc etc.
Seclusion doesn’t mean one is in jhana. But one is in jhana will always/mostly in seclusion.
Btw, I’m still looking at those experts in abhidhamma to verify. Is it true that they have understood even the lower teaching or not? Let alone a higher teaching. But if you do, please let me know.