Mahasi and Goenka methods

[Agon]

Do the Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka methods involve practicing mindfulness of the in and out breath to the point they stop?

[skandha]

The Mahasi method does not use breath meditation, anapanasati.

The Goenka method uses breath meditation, anapanasati but it does not actively encourage the development up till the 4th jhana where supposedly the breath stops. In general, it encourages the development up till upacara samadhi or 1st jhana, and then you move on to vipassana, seeing the impermanence of sensations. However I have been given advice by assistant teachers from the Goenka method to develop samadhi up till whatever level you yourself deem necessary. The other tradition of Sayama which also has the same teacher as Goenka, advices to develop samadhi as much as possible as it will only make your vipassana easier. I have the impression that the tradition of Sayama puts a bit more emphasis on samatha than Goenka. Sayama retreats practice samatha for 5 days and vipassana for 5 days, in contrast to Goenka's which practice samatha for 3 days and vipassana for 7 days.

[mikenz66]

The Mahasi method does not use breath meditation, anapanasati.

Though that's technically true, see Ven U Pandita's comments here: http://aimwell.org/questions.html
Furthermore, it's hard to pin down what the "Mahasi method" is, as there are many variations across Myanma, Sri Lanka, and Thailand. For example, I understand that the approach at Nissarana Vanaya, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissarana_Vanaya where Ven. Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda developed his practice, had a samatha emphasis to their practice. (See Ven N's book Seeing Through on https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/.)

My experience with teachers who teach based the Mahasi approach is that it was highly tailored to the student (as any teaching should be, of course), not a matter of mindlessly applying a particular formula. Similar to Skandha's Goenka experience, my teachers encouraged development of samadhi, but encouraged me to as aware as possible at all times.


Mike

[bekean]

Do the Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka methods involve practicing mindfulness of the in and out breath to the point they stop?

Yes, both the Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka methods of meditation involve practicing mindfulness of the in and out breath. However, it's important to note that the ultimate goal is not to stop the breath, but rather to develop mindfulness and insight into the nature of reality.
fnf
In the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, practitioners often begin by focusing on the rising and falling movements of the abdomen or the sensations at the nostrils during breathing. The objective is to observe the breath as it naturally occurs without any intention to control or manipulate it. The purpose is to cultivate moment-to-moment awareness and develop insight into the impermanent and non-self nature of the breath and all phenomena.

Similarly, in the Goenka tradition of Vipassana meditation, practitioners also start by observing the natural breath at the entrance of the nostrils or the rising and falling of the abdomen. The emphasis is on maintaining a balanced and non-reactive awareness of the breath, allowing it to flow naturally without interference. The goal is to develop mindfulness, concentration, and insight into the three characteristics of existence: impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-self.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Yes, both the Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka methods of meditation involve practicing mindfulness of the in and out breath. However, it's important to note that the ultimate goal is not to stop the breath, but rather to develop mindfulness and insight into the nature of reality.

This is incorrect. The Mahāsi Sayādaw's method does not use mindfulness of the in and out breath. It uses the method call “Attention to the Elements” in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta. As one breathes in, the diaphragm pushes down on the abdominal cavity, making the belly rise. As one breathes out, the diaphragm pushes up on the chest cavity, making the belly fall. This rising and falling movement is the element of motion (vāyo dhātu). When moving the limbs, the meditator also pays attention to the element of motion.

See Practical Insight Meditation for the detailed instruction.

I don’t think it is hard to pin down what the Mahāsi method is. One only has to read a number of the late Sayādaw’s publications and it will become clear. Different teachers may emphasise different aspects of the practice; some may introduce unorthodox methods.

Advice on Teaching
Finally we come to the subject of teaching. It is for you to give suggestions on the most beneficial points in regard to the teaching of the Dhamma. I would just like to give some outlines for you to discuss.

1. Teaching by you as meditation masters should mainly be confined to the subject of mindfulness meditation, precisely in accordance with the original texts of the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka.
2. Avoid the melodious recitation of Pāḷi stanzas.
3. Do not use comical, imaginary, or frivolous tales and stories just to attract the lay audience.
4. As you are under the patronage of the Mahāsi Meditation Centre, give teachings and instruc­tions according to the Mahāsi meditation method.
5. Take care to avoid statements, expressions or criticisms that are detrimental to others.
   In conclusion, I wish that all of you may be able to practise morality, concentration, and wisdom to the fullest extent, and urge and assist your devotees and disciples to do the same. May all of you, by striving for the promotion and propagation of the dispensation, attain the noble bliss of nibbāna and final deliverance from suffering in the shortest and easiest way.

[thepea]

Mahasi uses rise and fall of belly which is breath meditation, it is a form of anapana as it utilizes the in and out breath. Goenka uses breath at the upper lip and base of nostrils. The two techniques merge when the breath is observed inside the body.
There is a strong sensation at the belly as there is strong sensation at upper lip. Both caused by the biochemical reaction due to respiration.

[BrokenBones]

The suttas say that breathing ceases in fourth jhana but since jhana doesn't seem to be the goal in the two traditions I wonder if cessation of breathing is on the cards.

I consider the 'elements' meditation a reflective exercise rather than trying to perceive/imagine them within your own body.

"And what is the wind property? The wind property may be either internal or external. What is the internal wind property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-and-out breathing, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: This is called the internal wind property. Now both the internal wind property & the external wind property are simply wind property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the wind property and makes the wind property fade from the mind."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[form]

There are full details on the training method of mindfulness of breathing in the suttas. Why would you want to use a new method?

[skandha]

The suttas say that breathing ceases in fourth jhana but since jhana doesn't seem to be the goal in the two traditions I wonder if cessation of breathing is on the cards.

In the Goenka tradition, jhana is not the focus in the initial 10 day course. However in longer courses there is more emphasis on jhana. Goenka's teacher U Ba Khin wrote a book in Burmese teaching jhana. In both the U Ba Khin lines through Goenka and Mother Sayama, samatha is taught. 3 of the 10 days of Goenka courses are dedicated to samatha. Whilst in Mother Sayama's courses half of the 10 days is dedicated to samatha. In my opinion the U Ba Khin/Goenka tradition is not a dry insight tradition, jhana is required somewhere along the path.

[thepea]

The suttas say that breathing ceases in fourth jhana but since jhana doesn't seem to be the goal in the two traditions I wonder if cessation of breathing is on the cards.

In the Goenka tradition, jhana is not the focus in the initial 10 day course. However in longer courses there is more emphasis on jhana. Goenka's teacher U Ba Khin wrote a book in Burmese teaching jhana. In both the U Ba Khin lines through Goenka and Mother Sayama, samatha is taught. 3 of the 10 days of Goenka courses are dedicated to samatha. Whilst in Mother Sayama's courses half of the 10 days is dedicated to samatha. In my opinion the U Ba Khin/Goenka tradition is not a dry insight tradition, jhana is required somewhere along the path.

Single pointed concentration(jhana) is the goal in Goenka courses even the introductory 10am. Goenka simply doesn’t refer to the concentration one is developing as jhana. He does in the longer and old student specialty courses.

[BrokenBones]

There are full details on the training method of mindfulness of breathing in the suttas. Why would you want to use a new method?

Possibly because people are putting their faith elsewhere rather than in the Buddha's teachings.

[form]

There are full details on the training method of mindfulness of breathing in the suttas. Why would you want to use a new method?

Possibly because people are putting their faith elsewhere rather than in the Buddha's teachings.

There is even a sutta that the Buddha taught if done correctly and still there are traces of impurities, mean the job is not complete.