Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
hubble9458
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Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by hubble9458 »

Would suicide be ideal from a Theravadan’s point of view if it was proven that rebirth or continuation of any experience after death wasn’t real? If materialists are correct in their assertion that all experience ceases when the body dies, would voluntary death be a rational choice from an early Buddhist perspective in that suffering would cease?
SarathW
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by SarathW »

Hi
Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.
Your question is a very good one but if you know someone contemplating death please call the suicide line ASAP.
According to Buddhism, your OP description is amounted wrong to view.
And what is the wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the wrong view.
So your question is not valid as fundamental Buddhism is based on birth (some say rebirth)

I understand it is very difficult to understand so it is better to star practicing the way you can is better I suppose.
Please do not hesitate to ask any questions.
:group:
Last edited by SarathW on Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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nirodh27
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by nirodh27 »

The Buddha was happy, the Arahants were happy so there's no point to suicide yourself if you're happy and able to be happy. It would be rational only if you are in unbearable physical pain, something that Arahants did in the suttas.

Living beings wants happiness, not suffering. The path can give you that with the only caveat that you need some physical health. So no, it would not be rational to renounce to a live of jhanic happiness if the conditions are there for it.

Also, suffering would not cease, but increase for others that might love you or counts on you, something to keep in mind as well.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

See The Debate of King Milinda

35. On Suicide
“It has been said by the Blessed One, ‘A monk should not try to commit suicide [throw himself down from a precipice]; whoever does so should be dealt with according to the rule.’ ¹¹ Yet, on the other hand, you say that on whatever topic he was addressing the monks, he always, and with various similes, exhorted them to bring about the destruction of birth, old age, disease, and death, and whosoever overcame them he honoured with high praise.”

“O king, it is because an Arahant is of great benefit to beings that he laid down that prohibition. One who has reached the goal is like a boat to carry people over the floods of sensuality, becoming, views, and ignorance; like a mighty rain-cloud he fills their minds with satisfac­tion and he is a guide to those who are lost. Out of compassion for living beings the Blessed One said, ‘A monk is not to commit suicide.’ And what is the reason the Blessed One urged us to put an end to birth, old age, and death? Because of the limitless nature of the suffering of the round of rebirths the Blessed One, out of com­passion for beings, urged them in many ways, with various similes to free themselves from the round of rebirths.”
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Ontheway
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by Ontheway »

Theravada don't advocate for suicide. Gaining a human birth is a rare opportunity. Everyone should make use of it in best way to accumulate more merits, wholesome qualities and realize the Dhamma.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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dhammapal
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by dhammapal »

hubble9458 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:27 am Would suicide be ideal from a Theravadan’s point of view if it was proven that rebirth or continuation of any experience after death wasn’t real? If materialists are correct in their assertion that all experience ceases when the body dies, would voluntary death be a rational choice from an early Buddhist perspective in that suffering would cease?
Enlightened arahants can expect no suffering after death but very rarely do they suicide.
SarathW
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by SarathW »

dhammapal wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:27 am
hubble9458 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:27 am Would suicide be ideal from a Theravadan’s point of view if it was proven that rebirth or continuation of any experience after death wasn’t real? If materialists are correct in their assertion that all experience ceases when the body dies, would voluntary death be a rational choice from an early Buddhist perspective in that suffering would cease?
Enlightened arahants can expect no suffering after death but very rarely do they suicide.
Good point, but I would say that the Arahants never suicide.
They will live until their life span ends.
I know this is a contested matter but I wish to make a note.
:focus:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
lumo
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by lumo »

hubble9458 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:27 am Would suicide be ideal from a Theravadan’s point of view if it was proven that rebirth or continuation of any experience after death wasn’t real? If materialists are correct in their assertion that all experience ceases when the body dies, would voluntary death be a rational choice from an early Buddhist perspective in that suffering would cease?
I understand the desire to speculate, but the Buddha would say that this is a waste of your precious time. The Buddha advised put all questions of what the world is or isn’t aside because they are not useful to put an end to Dukkha. May your practice be fruitful :namaste:
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:38 am ...
the Arahants never suicide.
...
:goodpost:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Nicolas
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by Nicolas »

hubble9458 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:27 am Would suicide be ideal from a Theravadan’s point of view if it was proven that rebirth or continuation of any experience after death wasn’t real? If materialists are correct in their assertion that all experience ceases when the body dies, would voluntary death be a rational choice from an early Buddhist perspective in that suffering would cease?
Channa Sutta (SN 35.87) wrote: On one occasion [...] the Venerable Channa was sick, afflicted, gravely ill.
[...]
“I am not bearing up, I am not getting better. Strong painful feelings are increasing in me, not subsiding, and their increase, not their subsiding, is to be discerned. I will use the knife, friend Sāriputta, I have no desire to live.”
[...]
Then, soon after they had left, the Venerable Channa used the knife.
[...]
When one lays down this body and takes up another body, then I say one is blameworthy. This did not happen in the case of the bhikkhu Channa. The bhikkhu Channa used the knife blamelessly.”
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:42 am See The Debate of King Milinda

35. On Suicide
“It has been said by the Blessed One, ‘A monk should not try to commit suicide [throw himself down from a precipice]; whoever does so should be dealt with according to the rule.’ ¹¹ Yet, on the other hand, you say that on whatever topic he was addressing the monks, he always, and with various similes, exhorted them to bring about the destruction of birth, old age, disease, and death, and whosoever overcame them he honoured with high praise.”

“O king, it is because an Arahant is of great benefit to beings that he laid down that prohibition. One who has reached the goal is like a boat to carry people over the floods of sensuality, becoming, views, and ignorance; like a mighty rain-cloud he fills their minds with satisfac­tion and he is a guide to those who are lost. Out of compassion for living beings the Blessed One said, ‘A monk is not to commit suicide.’ And what is the reason the Blessed One urged us to put an end to birth, old age, and death? Because of the limitless nature of the suffering of the round of rebirths the Blessed One, out of com­passion for beings, urged them in many ways, with various similes to free themselves from the round of rebirths.”
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Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Nicolas wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:50 pm
Channa Sutta (SN 35.87) wrote: On one occasion [...] the Venerable Channa was sick, afflicted, gravely ill.
[...]
“I am not bearing up, I am not getting better. Strong painful feelings are increasing in me, not subsiding, and their increase, not their subsiding, is to be discerned. I will use the knife, friend Sāriputta, I have no desire to live.”
[...]
Then, soon after they had left, the Venerable Channa used the knife.
[...]
When one lays down this body and takes up another body, then I say one is blameworthy. This did not happen in the case of the bhikkhu Channa. The bhikkhu Channa used the knife blamelessly.”
2. Channa v.l. Chandaka.– An elder. No particulars of his early life are available. He once stayed at Gijjhakūṭa, dangerously ill and suffering much pain. He was visited by Sāriputta and Mahā-Cunda, and when they discovered that he contemplated suicide, they tried to deter him, promising to provide him with all necessaries and to wait on him themselves. Finding him quite determined, Sāriputta discussed with him the Buddha’s teachings and then left him. Soon afterwards Channa committed suicide by cutting his throat. When this was reported to the Buddha, he explained that no blame was attached to Channa, for he was an Arahant at the moment of death (M.iii.263 ff; S.iv.55 ff).

Buddhaghosa explains (MA.ii.1012 f; SA.iii.12 f ) that after cutting his throat, Channa, feeling the fear of death, suddenly realised that he was yet a worldling. This thought so filled him with anguish that he put forth special effort, and by developing insight became an Arahant.
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Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
Bundokji
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by Bundokji »

Theravada does not teach rationality. In fact, in DN1, rationalists are explained in the following terms:
"Herein, bhikkhus, some recluse or brahmin is a rationalist, an investigator. He declares his view — hammered out by reason, deduced from his investigations, following his own flight of thought — thus: "The self and the world are eternal, barren, steadfast as a mountain peak, standing firm like a pillar. And though these beings roam and wander (through the round of existence), pass away and re-arise, yet the self and the world remain the same just like eternity itself.'
The assumption: " If materialists are correct in their assertion that all experience ceases when the body dies" is rooted in uncertainty, and yet, it becomes a rational decision to take sides through the notion of a safe bet (or pascal's wager):
The wager uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):

God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives
A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up
You must wager (it is not optional)
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing
Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe...' and 'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.
So, in the case of the materialist assertion, the cessation of experience that happens upon death is like eternity itself, where the substance of reality is dust: from dust to dust, the world is everlasting, and following this logic is a safe bit. If rebirth happens to be true, then it will recourse back to dust (the infinite).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
dharmacorps
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by dharmacorps »

Unless one is an arahant and is terminally ill, then suicide is blameworthy in Theravada Buddhism, and all sects I am aware of.

Regardless of any other "ifs" or speculative hypothetical scientific discoveries, or discussion of kamma. Simple.

If you are experiencing suicidal ideation, please seek out a therapist or other professional. Finding religious justifications for suicide is a worrisome venture. :anjali:
SecretSage
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Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism

Post by SecretSage »

hubble9458 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:27 am Would suicide be ideal from a Theravadan’s point of view if it was proven that rebirth or continuation of any experience after death wasn’t real? If materialists are correct in their assertion that all experience ceases when the body dies, would voluntary death be a rational choice from an early Buddhist perspective in that suffering would cease?
No, if there is no afterlife then it would be still be worthwhile to stay alive and achieve arahantship or the highest happiness here and now and live happily and in good health for as long as possible.

Happiness, joy, and bliss from enlightenment is superior to suicide...why would someone want to commit suicide if they could achieve arahantship here and now?

If there is no afterlife and someone commits suicide that means they destroyed their only opportunity to experience the highest form of happiness, bliss, and enjoyment here and now while still alive.

Even though I'm sure there is an afterlife as described in Theravada I still want to stay alive and achieve arahantship and the six higher knowledges here and now!
"You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way"
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