Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

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beanyan
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by beanyan »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:14 am Of course we have free will. We have no choice.
Of course if Gotama did not believe in free will he would have become a disciple of Makkhali Gosala who the canon says taught that you are automatically liberated after X rebirths just because you reached the magic number of rebirths.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Dhammanando »

beanyan wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:08 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:14 am Of course we have free will. We have no choice.
Of course if Gotama did not believe in free will he would have become a disciple of Makkhali Gosala who the canon says taught that you are automatically liberated after X rebirths just because you reached the magic number of rebirths.
To argue, "Someone of Makkhali's view would reject free will, therefore someone who rejects free will would be of Makkhali's view" is to commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent. (P → Q,Q) → P

There are countless views besides Makkhali's which, if held, would logically entail the rejection of free will.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Dhammanando
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Dhammanando »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:23 am "One of Makkhali's view would reject free will,
An afterthought...

It occurs to me that there's a more elementary problem in beanyan's argument: rejection of free will would not necessarily be entailed by Makkhali's view, at least as we know it from the suttas. To hold that the actions beings perform are soteriologically irrelevant because everybody is liberated after they've reincarnated enough times doesn't amount to taking any particular stand on the free will question. That is, it would be equally compatible with a determinist, a voluntarist or a compatibilist understanding of willed actions.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
beanyan
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by beanyan »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:24 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:23 am "One of Makkhali's view would reject free will,
An afterthought...

It occurs to me that there's a more elementary problem in beanyan's argument: rejection of free will would not necessarily be entailed by Makkhali's view, at least as we know it from the suttas. To hold that the actions beings perform are soteriologically irrelevant because everybody is liberated after they've reincarnated enough times doesn't amount to taking any particular stand on the free will question. That is, it would be equally compatible with a determinist, a voluntarist or a compatibilist understanding of willed actions.
The Purana who said beings become deiled for no reason etc.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Dhammanando »

beanyan wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:58 pmThe Purana who said beings become deiled for no reason etc.
Actually that's still part of Makkhali's view, not Pūrāṇa Kassapa's. But I take your point, thanks. At the time of my afterthought I was thinking only of the "purification by the round of saṃsāra" part and had forgotten about this bit:
Great king, there is no cause or condition for the defilement of beings; beings are defiled without any cause or condition. There is no cause or condition for the purification of beings; beings are purified without cause or condition. There is no self-determination, no determination by others, no personal determination. There is no power, no energy, no personal strength, no personal fortitude. All sentient beings, all living beings, all creatures, all souls, are helpless, powerless, devoid of energy. Undergoing transformation by destiny, circumstance, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six classes of men.
So forget the afterthought. But the earlier post still stands.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Zenny
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Zenny »

Another nonsense decadent question.
Freewill is so self evident as to require no extra proofs.
What has happened to your common sense?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:20 pm Another nonsense decadent question.
Freewill is so self evident as to require no extra proofs.
What has happened to your common sense?

I appreciate your way of thinking & use of common sense. In a similar manner to that, concerned with apparent requirement of no extra proofs, regarding your opinion, a question occurrs to me:
  • Would you also agree if someone claim himself (or his body & mind) as: "This is mine, this I am, this is my self" is so self evident as to require no extra proofs?
Thanks.


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
Zenny
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Zenny »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:37 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:20 pm Another nonsense decadent question.
Freewill is so self evident as to require no extra proofs.
What has happened to your common sense?

I appreciate your way of thinking & use of common sense. In a similar manner to that, concerned with apparent requirement of no extra proofs, regarding your opinion, a question occurrs to me:
  • Would you also agree if someone claim himself (or his body & mind) as: "This is mine, this I am, this is my self" is so self evident as to require no extra proofs?
Thanks.


:heart:
The body is mine. My self is my "mind". I am embodied will/mind.
Very simple common sense. It's only surface linguistics or an agenda that claims otherwise.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:42 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:37 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:20 pm Another nonsense decadent question.
Freewill is so self evident as to require no extra proofs.
What has happened to your common sense?

I appreciate your way of thinking & use of common sense. In a similar manner to that, concerned with apparent requirement of no extra proofs, regarding your opinion, a question occurrs to me:
  • Would you also agree if someone claim himself (or his body & mind) as: "This is mine, this I am, this is my self" is so self evident as to require no extra proofs?
Thanks.


:heart:
The body is mine. My self is my "mind". I am embodied will/mind.
Very simple common sense. It's only surface linguistics or an agenda that claims otherwise.

I genuinely appreciate your openness & sincerity here.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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cappuccino
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:59 am I genuinely appreciate your openness & sincerity here.
self and no self are extremes
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:10 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:59 am I genuinely appreciate your openness & sincerity here.
self and no self are extremes

:cry: :tantrum: :computerproblem:


:lol:


:toast:


:coffee:


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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cappuccino
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:59 am :cry:
it's very natural
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:43 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:59 am :cry:
it's very natural

:D
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
may.all.bliss
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by may.all.bliss »

No free will, due to:

-No volition in creating the universe, it arose by itself without will, (just like the dreams out of deep sleep).

-Everything affects everything else. Bad childhood? Good chance you will become a 'low life' person.
If it's due to bad kamma from previous births, but no beginning can be pointed out, who could be first responsible?

That should be argument enough. But to keep going:

Why do you choose anything at all?
Because your body just arose, and it has a certain genetic and emotional make up, and then is presented by circumstances you don't control,
and then a choice is made, where is the freedom in that?

So I think it's pretty there isn't any, despite general conditioning saying otherwise, 'good boy, bad girl'. etc.

It also seems in alignment with Buddhism, as thus, body and mind are not self, if they are not self,
who is there to have free will?

Radical, yes. Disparaging to hear, perhaps. Ultimately helping a lot with peace.
Hey, you wanted to go for no-ego right? Well..
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robertk
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by robertk »

may.all.bliss wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:16 pm No free will, due to:


It also seems in alignment with Buddhism, as thus, body and mind are not self, if they are not self,
who is there to have free will?

Radical, yes. Disparaging to hear, perhaps. Ultimately helping a lot with peace.
Hey, you wanted to go for no-ego right? Well..
:thumbsup:
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