Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by DNS »

may.all.bliss wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:16 pm No free will, due to:
...
Why do you choose anything at all?
Because your body just arose, and it has a certain genetic and emotional make up, and then is presented by circumstances you don't control,
and then a choice is made, where is the freedom in that?
I thought you said no free will, but then in this paragraph you say "then a choice is made" which sounds like free-will or volition.
"Just as, your majesty, some man or other might prepare a poison and drink it himself, and make others drink it, then he and the others would become ill. Even so, your majesty, if some man here through volition intended some unwholesome deed, then on the dissolution of the body, after death, he would reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. And those who follow his example would also on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.

"Also just as, your majesty, some man or other might mix together ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey and sugar and drink it himself, and make others drink it, then he and the others would be happy. Even so, your majesty, if some man here through volition intended some wholesome deed, then on the dissolution of the body, after death, he would reappear in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. And those who followed his example would also on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. So too, your majesty, the distinguishing characteristics of volition are intending and preparation."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... f_Volition
Yes, there is conditioning via DO, but there is also volition. I see it more as a sort of mix of determinism and free-will, not an either/or scenario in Buddhism.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by may.all.bliss »

DNS wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:25 pm
I thought you said no free will, but then in this paragraph you say "then a choice is made" which sounds like free-will or volition.
"..."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... f_Volition
Yes, there is conditioning via DO, but there is also volition. I see it more as a sort of mix of determinism and free-will, not an either/or scenario in Buddhism.
Yes there appears to be choice, just as there appears separation, but ultimately, no separation and no choice, 'illusionary'.

Also due to, infinite regress, who made the first choice, who is to blame an aggressive person when raised aggressively?

Still teaching of right conduct can have good relative effects or even for practice, but it's also said all teaching, good and especially bad, have to be let go off by the Buddha.
-

Still there may be some room for mystery or not knowing on this, no ultimate free will, probably, sounds reasonable.
But who is to with absolute authority what this mechanism or life is, some free will, perhaps.

But, in any case, body is not ultimate self, so.. becomes a redundant question ultimately I think.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by DNS »

may.all.bliss wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:55 pm Also due to, infinite regress, who made the first choice, who is to blame an aggressive person when raised aggressively?
The origin of the cosmos is one of the imponderables. No first beginning is discernible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acinteyya

I'm not saying this provides proof of free-will, but there are twin studies where they are raised the same, have the same diets, same circle of friends, etc and one will turn out completely different personality and other traits than the other. And then there are twin studies where they are raised separately and turn out very similar. This is because each is still unique, but conditioned by their genes, their culture, upbringing, so you see cases of very close similarities and also vast differences due to the role of kamma and volition (imo).
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by chetbakes »

If you google "No self, no free will, no problem Anattalakkhana Sutta" there's a good 33 page paper pdf by Martin Adam on the topic, that puts it in context of western philosophic conceptions of free will. Whether survival conditioning or the will not to go blind, I converted it to epub before reading;)
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by may.all.bliss »

Whether or not there is free will,
all beings want happiness and no suffering.

The only reason they misact, is due to ignorance.

may all be happy
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by bkmudita »

Conditioned free will.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by DarrellDiaz »

Difficult for me to answer this without resorting to the view of Makkhali Gosala


However as i said the big bang seems to give strong indications that everything was already determined at the begining of the universe


I suppose the question comes down to matter and mind, is everything predetermined accept for when there is mind to alter events or is mind determined a long with matter
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by SecretSage »

Based on modern science there is no free-will I don't think The Buddha taught that we had free-will he thought that certain things could influence our decisions even though our decisions are obviously uncontrolled.

Just like how you might not believe that your car has free-will but certain things influence how your car runs and functions even if the car doesn't have free-will.

I find it funny that a lot of the same posters here who firmly believe in evolution some how believe in free-will or are uncertain if free-will exists or not even though the scientific evidence indicating that free-will is non-existent is around a million times more concrete than the scientific evidence supporting evolution.

This proves their belief in evolution had nothing to do with scientific evidence and also proves that their level of intelligence is too low to understand how evolution and free-will contradict each other.

At least Darwin was intelligent enough to understand the obvious contradiction between free-will and evolution.

They don't even understand how non-determinism and disorder falsifies evolution.

If evidence was the real reason for believing or disbelieving in something you should be around a million times more certain that free-will is non-existent than you are if evolution is true or not not the other way around like how it is in this clown anti-science society we live in.

Apparently brain injuries altering consciousness and sensory perception isn't good enough evidence for free-will believers but a group of delusionals looking at a fossil without DNA and imagining in their mind that something evolved is good enough evidence to prove that evolution is true...just use your imagination and imagine it in your mind...what a real joke.

What a clown anti-science society we live in.

The only reason they believe in evolution is because they were raised and taught to just the same concept as someone who believes in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy just because they were raised and taught to believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy not because of evidence.

It's because of the psychology of the belief rather than because of evidence.

Obviously based on the actual scientific evidence rather than things common popular media there is no free-will and there is no evolution.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Ceisiwr »

SecretSage wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:19 pm
This proves their belief in evolution had nothing to do with scientific evidence and also proves that their level of intelligence is too low to understand how evolution and free-will contradict each other.
Thankfully we have you to instruct us lowly mortals.
Obviously based on the actual scientific evidence rather than things common popular media there is no free-will and there is no evolution.
As of yet we’ve seen no real argument for the former, whilst your knowledge of the latter is woefully poor.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Mahabrahma »

Freedom writer, they cursed my brother to his face, go home outsider, this town'll be your burying place...
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Suddh »

It's honestly quite staggering that this is up for debate at all, never mind being a "Great Debate."

If we had no choice, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered teaching.

"Abandon what's unskilful, monks. It's possible to abandon what's unskilful. If it weren't possible, I wouldn't say, "Abandon the unskilful."...

Develop what's skillful, monks. It's possible to develop what's skillful. If it weren't, I wouldn't say, "Develop what's skillful."..."

AN 2.19

Notice also how often he dealt in "shoulds" - where there are shoulds there are choices. Even viewing the aggregates as not-self is a should - just check out the Discourse on Not-Self: All form etc. should be seen (daṭṭhabbaṃ) with right discernment as it really is: this is not mine, I'm not this, it's not my self.

Choosing to believe, against the evidence, that the Buddha taught "there is no self" and that therefore there's nobody to choose anything, is also a choice: a choice that blocks any hope of following the path of practice.

It's your choice.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by robertk »

Suddh wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:44 am It's honestly quite staggering that this is up for debate at all, never mind being a "Great Debate."

If we had no choice, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered teaching.

"
It's your choice.
And this free will. Is it part of the khandhas?
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Suddh »

robertk wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:57 am
Suddh wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:44 am It's honestly quite staggering that this is up for debate at all, never mind being a "Great Debate."

If we had no choice, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered teaching.

"
It's your choice.
And this free will. Is it part of the khandhas?
What we call free will the Buddha simply called kamma. He didn't teach kamma to be an aggregate.

As the Buddha himself said, the aggregates are not ours - n'etaṃ mama - but kamma is ours - kammassakā. The aggregates not being ours means we can't simply order them to be the way we want, but even then we have a measure of control. Why else would the Buddha have spent so much time teaching monks the importance of training their perceptions? Why else would we have taught us all to abandon unskilful thought fabrications (especially wrong views like "we have no choice in how we act") and develop skillful ones? Why else would he have told us the things we should and shouldn't do with our mouths and bodies i.e. form? It's because, even though they don't ultimately belong to us and don't simply obey our every wish - in other words, you can't tell your fat body to be slim and expect it to just obey - we are in control of what we do with the aggregates within the limits of their capabilities - you can control your diet, exercise, or if all fails go see a cosmetic surgeon. The fact that kamma is ours means we are free to choose and control our present actions, albeit within the limits defined by our past kamma - the wiser we've been in choosing our actions, the broader our choices become each present moment.

Kamma is therefore not to be taught as an aggregate, rather it is how we choose to make use of and relate to the aggregates. We can use them to practice the precepts or transgress them, or we can use them to meditate and gather them into a state of concentration that can provide a basis for putting an end to kamma. Finally we can choose to cling to them and view them as self or we can work to uproot and abandon our clinging so as to be free from all suffering.

The title question is whether or not the Buddha taught we have a choice. There's no debating it: he did. The fact that so many self-proclaimed Buddhists are debating it is a sign of how far they've strayed from the true teaching. May they find their way back.
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by robertk »

Suddh wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:57 am
robertk wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 3:57 am
Suddh wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:44 am It's honestly quite staggering that this is up for debate at all, never mind being a "Great Debate."

If we had no choice, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered teaching.

"
It's your choice.
And this free will. Is it part of the khandhas?
What we call free will the Buddha simply called kamma. He didn't teach kamma to be an aggregate.

The fact that so many self-proclaimed Buddhists are debating it is a sign of how far they've strayed from the true teaching. May they find their way back.
in the Nibbedhika sutta it says:
Cetanāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ vadāmi.
It is intention that I call deeds

Cetana is a part of sankhara khandha, and is conditioned..
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Re: Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

Post by Suddh »

robertk wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 12:16 pm
in the Nibbedhika sutta it says:
Cetanāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ vadāmi.
It is intention that I call deeds

Cetana is a part of sankhara khandha, and is conditioned..
Which noble truth does the saṇkhārakhandha fit into?
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