What does sangha mean to you?

[thepea]

Could you expand in this, as I have come to see sangha to mean community or mind we carry.
San in pali is the “good and bad things we acquire”. The noble sangha are the enlightened qualities of mind.

Have you studied history in school? This was 500 BC. Very early iron age in India. Sangha basically means school, to study the dhamma.

No, I have little formal education. That’s the first I’ve heard of that. Thanks for expanding.

[thepea]

I understand that there are two types of Sangha: sammuti and Ariya (like what mentioned previously in this thread)

Sammuti Sangha is made of living men (Bhikkhu) and women (Bhikkhuni) in the past and present that wearing the robes and observe Vinaya rules.

For example, Ven. Nanamoli Thera (in the past), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (present day), Ven. Dhammanando (present day), etc.

Ariya Sangha consists of Sotapattimagga attainer, Sotapattiphala attainer, Sakadagami magga attainer, Sakadagamiphala attainer, Anagamimagga attainer, Anagamiphala attainer, Arahattamagga attainer, and Arahattaphala attainer; in the past or present. Not necessarily human being.

For example, past: Ven. Punna Mantaniputta Thera, Ven. Sivali Thera, Ven. Vajira Theri, Ven. Rahulamata Theri (monastics); Janavasabha Devaputta, Vessavana Maharaja, Sakka Devaraja (deva layfollowers); Citta the householder, Velukantaki Nandamata lady, Suppabuddha the leper (human layfollowers), many more... including present day monastics & layfollowers (which I have no knowledge).

So, when I take refuge, I take refuge in Sangha as described in Sanghaguna, which indicated Ariyasangha.

Didn’t Ven. Dhammanando disrobe to get married?
How can we seek protection from robed ariya when none of them announce attainments?

[Lal]

There is a big difference between "Saṅgha" and "Bhikkhu." The following two suttas help clarify.

1. Saṅgha included only the eight Noble Persons or "aṭṭha purisa puggalā ."
The Saṅgha is described in the verses beginning at marker 6.1 in the "Ratana Sutta (kp6)":https://suttacentral.net/kp6/en/sujato? ... =latin#6.1

2. A Bhikkhu is an ordained person. If a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni has attained a magga phala, then they would be included in the Saṅgha.
- On the other hand, a lay person who has attained a magga phala is included in the Saṅgha.
- The fact that there are "bhikkhus destined to the apayas" is in the "Bhikkhu Sutta (AN 5.286)":https://suttacentral.net/an5.286/en/suj ... =latin#6.1
- An example is Devadatta, who remained a bhikkhu until his death and was born in an apaya.

[Noble Sangha]

There is a big difference between "Saṅgha" and "Bhikkhu." The following two suttas help clarify.

1. Saṅgha included only the eight Noble Persons or "aṭṭha purisa puggalā ."
The Saṅgha is described in the verses beginning at marker 6.1 in the "Ratana Sutta (kp6)":https://suttacentral.net/kp6/en/sujato? ... =latin#6.1

2. A Bhikkhu is an ordained person. If a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni has attained a magga phala, then they would be included in the Saṅgha.
- On the other hand, a lay person who has attained a magga phala is included in the Saṅgha.
- The fact that there are "bhikkhus destined to the apayas" is in the "Bhikkhu Sutta (AN 5.286)":https://suttacentral.net/an5.286/en/suj ... =latin#6.1
- An example is Devadatta, who remained a bhikkhu until his death and was born in an apaya.

Thank you for the well explanation Venerable Sir

[thepea]

I understand that there are two types of Sangha: sammuti and Ariya (like what mentioned previously in this thread)

Sammuti Sangha is made of living men (Bhikkhu) and women (Bhikkhuni) in the past and present that wearing the robes and observe Vinaya rules.

For example, Ven. Nanamoli Thera (in the past), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (present day), Ven. Dhammanando (present day), etc.

Ariya Sangha consists of Sotapattimagga attainer, Sotapattiphala attainer, Sakadagami magga attainer, Sakadagamiphala attainer, Anagamimagga attainer, Anagamiphala attainer, Arahattamagga attainer, and Arahattaphala attainer; in the past or present. Not necessarily human being.

For example, past: Ven. Punna Mantaniputta Thera, Ven. Sivali Thera, Ven. Vajira Theri, Ven. Rahulamata Theri (monastics); Janavasabha Devaputta, Vessavana Maharaja, Sakka Devaraja (deva layfollowers); Citta the householder, Velukantaki Nandamata lady, Suppabuddha the leper (human layfollowers), many more... including present day monastics & layfollowers (which I have no knowledge).

So, when I take refuge, I take refuge in Sangha as described in Sanghaguna, which indicated Ariyasangha.

There is no evident criteria in identifying today of ariya sangha or sammuti sangha
Today we cannot accept the demand of those who say we are arya .A few in forest monasteries follow sila monastically in hiding . The few or many in villages are bent on education or some in social service .
The present sangha community is after uposatha called samanera but ordained further as upasampada with hundreds of precepts to observe . Those upasampada publicly breaking vinaya . We lay buddhists only have to venerate a sangha society just to uphold buddhist but still talking about the past sangha as existed . When we pronounce sanghan saranam gacccami do or can be we really honestly cry it out .

With all the corruption of this world including Buddhist monastics, do you not feel by taking refuge(shelter/protection) we are taking this within the frame work of our bodies? We are complete and contain all we need for liberation.
"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

Dhamma being the island of mind and body. The ohysical property(land) of which you alone have sovereignty and complete dominion over.

[Noble Sangha]

In this world, there are certain people / person that one should be careful with how they respond / say / mention to refute / dispute / discredit what that certain person mentions / say about the Buddha dhamma. In fact, relating to the Buddha dhamma, this should always be the case, not just to certain people or person, but to all living beings. If one is not careful / heedless, one could be digging themselves into a deep hole that would be very difficult to dig out of.

When we’re learning from others, at times especially at the beginning, we have to take with faith what that other person is introducing / teaching / mentioning. But at a later time, it’s always a good idea to confirm what’s being mentioned / taught, especially when one develops the ability to do so. But developing or having the ability to do so is another story.

On here and out there, I often see people ignore / not taking into consideration / not take into account / not pay attention to what they should, instead blindly believing, embracing and following what they shouldn’t. But I guess this is the way it is during these times.

I like the first example and that proves your point.

If what was brought up / mentioned was true, I thought he / she had a point as well.

Mumfie,

Can you please tell me what source or where you got this English translation from?

“Venerables, the four rules on defeat have been recited. If a bhikkhu commits any one of them, he is no longer part of the bhikkhusaṅgha.”

Can you please share / explain why you provided two different “English translations” here?

“Venerables, the four rules on defeat have been recited. If a bhikkhu commits any one of them, he is no longer part of the bhikkhusaṅgha.”

“Venerables, the four rules on expulsion have been recited. If a monk commits any one of them, he is no longer part of the community of monks. As before, so after: he’s expelled and excluded from the community. ”

As well, I went to the Bh. Brahmali’s translated sutta that you linked.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... ript=latin

I then used ctrl + f for the word “bhikkhusangha”. I hope you and others do this as well and see for yourselves as it only turned up 1 search result for the word “bhikkhusangha” in the whole entire sutta. This what turned up.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... tin#9.3.48

“… That being, monks, was a wicked brahmin right here in Rājagaha.

eso,bhikkhave, satto imasmiṁyeva rājagahe duṭṭhabrāhmaṇo ahosi.

At the time of Kassapa, the fully Awakened One, he had invited the Sangha of monks to a meal. He filled a trough with feces, had them informed that the meal was ready, and said,

So kassapassa sammāsambuddhassa pāvacane bhikkhusaṅghaṁ bhattena nimantetvā doṇiyo gūthassa pūrāpetvā kālaṁ ārocāpetvā etadavoca

‘Sirs, eat as much as you like and take the leftovers with you.’ …

”‘ato, bhonto, yāvadatthaṁ bhuñjantu ceva harantu cā’”ti …pe…."

Based on the 1 turned up search result, can you please explain how the usage of the Pali word “bhikkhusangham” in this sutta supports what you’re stating / claiming / asserting?

I also looked up the English translated sentence that you use to support / assert your claim. I compared it with the Pali words / sentence and here’s what turns up.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... tin#9.7.13

“Venerables, the four rules on expulsion have been recited.

Uddiṭṭhā kho āyasmanto cattāro pārājikā dhammā,

If a monk commits any one of them, he is no longer part of the community of monks.

yesaṁ bhikkhu aññataraṁ vā aññataraṁ vā āpajjitvā na labhati bhikkhūhi saddhiṁ saṁvāsaṁ,

As before, so after: he’s expelled and excluded from the community.

yathā pure tathā pacchā, pārājiko hoti asaṁvāso".

Is it me or do I not see the Pali word “bhikkhusangha” being associated with the English translated sentence that you’re using?

Can you please explain the discrepancy between what you’re stating / claiming / asserting and what I’m seeing / discerning from the very same sutta in vinaya pitaka that you have provided to me to support what you have introduced / stated / mentioned?

May you and all of us living beings be and stay well.

[wenjaforever]

No, I have little formal education. That’s the first I’ve heard of that. Thanks for expanding.

No problem. Ask anytime, glad to help.

[Coëmgenu]

The term "Saṃgha" can mean a school, but it actually has a far more general meaning in its older usages.

A "Saṃgha" is an association, a confederation, a community, a nation, any general group of persons, a crowd, a priesthood, a collection, a flock, a heap, a quantity, a collective that is bound by a single legal contract, a business, or even a court.

Now, obviously all of these meanings are not meant all at the same time when the term is used in any given Buddhist text. By the time of the Buddha, the term "Saṃgha" seems to be either geopolitical or spiritual. It denotes communities and/or associations within communities. These communities can be geopolitical, such as the community of a specific village or town or the community of a king's court; or these communities can be spiritual, as with the Buddhist and Jaina Saṃghas.

Consider Snp 3.11:

Disvāna deve muditamane udagge,
Cittiṁ karitvāna idamavoca tattha;
“Kiṁ devasaṅgho atiriva kalyarūpo,
Dussaṁ gahetvā ramayatha kiṁ paṭicca
Seeing the gods rejoicing, elated,
he paid respects and said this there:
“Why is the community of gods in such excellent spirits?
Why take up streamers and whirl them about?

There is no "devasaṃgha" in Theravāda. Only humans are members of the Saṃgha in traditional Theravādin Buddhism. So here we have an example of its usage as a general word for "multitude," "host," or "crowd."

In non-Theravādin Mahāyāna Buddhism, and likely in Mahāsāṃghika Buddhism before it, the Buddha has Saṃghas of Humans, Devas, Gandharvas, and Nāgas. This is related to the well-known myth that serves as an origin for the diverse Prajñāpāramitā textual redactions: supposedly Guhyakādhipati Bodhisattva memorized the Prajñāpāramitā and transmitted it to the Bodhisattvasaṃghas of the Devas, the Gandharvas, and the Nāgas. The Devas preserved the One-Syllable Prajñāpāramitā and transmitted it to Master Aśvaghoṣa. The Gandharvas preserved the Diamond Prajñāpāramitā and transmitted it to the Bodhisattva Maitreya. The Nāgas preserved the Great Prajñāpāramitā and transmitted it to Master Nāgārjuna. Or so they say...

In direct opposition to the notion of the existence of these three non-human Saṃghas, in some early Buddhist texts preserved by the Theravādins (and I believe the Sarvāstivādins as well), Devas cannot ordain, and Nāgas are depicted as trying to sneak into the human Saṃghas (presumably not having one of their own). If I remember properly, there is an episode with a would-be disciple who dies too soon and is reborn as a Deva, unable to ordain and go forth into the dispensation due to his godly/"Devic" status.

[thepea]

The term "Saṃgha" can mean a school, but it actually has a far more general meaning in its older usages.

A "Saṃgha" is an association, a confederation, a community, a nation, any general group of persons, a crowd, a priesthood, a collection, a flock, a heap, a quantity, a collective that is bound by a single legal contract, a business, or even a court.

Now, obviously all of these meanings are not meant all at the same time when the term is used in any given Buddhist text. By the time of the Buddha, the term "Saṃgha" seems to be either geopolitical or spiritual. It denotes communities and/or associations within communities. These communities can be geopolitical, such as the community of a specific village or town or the community of a king's court; or these communities can be spiritual, as with the Buddhist and Jaina Saṃghas.

Consider Snp 3.11:

Disvāna deve muditamane udagge,
Cittiṁ karitvāna idamavoca tattha;
“Kiṁ devasaṅgho atiriva kalyarūpo,
Dussaṁ gahetvā ramayatha kiṁ paṭicca
Seeing the gods rejoicing, elated,
he paid respects and said this there:
“Why is the community of gods in such excellent spirits?
Why take up streamers and whirl them about?

There is no "devasaṃgha" in Theravāda. Only humans are members of the Saṃgha in traditional Theravādin Buddhism. So here we have an example of its usage as a general word for "multitude," "host," or "crowd."

Sangha as
A past stockpile of ones sankharas(past life regressions).
The Holy Ghost which haunt us.

[Ontheway]

I understand that there are two types of Sangha: sammuti and Ariya (like what mentioned previously in this thread)

Sammuti Sangha is made of living men (Bhikkhu) and women (Bhikkhuni) in the past and present that wearing the robes and observe Vinaya rules.

For example, Ven. Nanamoli Thera (in the past), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (present day), Ven. Dhammanando (present day), etc.

Ariya Sangha consists of Sotapattimagga attainer, Sotapattiphala attainer, Sakadagami magga attainer, Sakadagamiphala attainer, Anagamimagga attainer, Anagamiphala attainer, Arahattamagga attainer, and Arahattaphala attainer; in the past or present. Not necessarily human being.

For example, past: Ven. Punna Mantaniputta Thera, Ven. Sivali Thera, Ven. Vajira Theri, Ven. Rahulamata Theri (monastics); Janavasabha Devaputta, Vessavana Maharaja, Sakka Devaraja (deva layfollowers); Citta the householder, Velukantaki Nandamata lady, Suppabuddha the leper (human layfollowers), many more... including present day monastics & layfollowers (which I have no knowledge).

So, when I take refuge, I take refuge in Sangha as described in Sanghaguna, which indicated Ariyasangha.

Didn’t Ven. Dhammanando disrobe to get married?
How can we seek protection from robed ariya when none of them announce attainments?

Then that would be excluded. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

[thepea]

I understand that there are two types of Sangha: sammuti and Ariya (like what mentioned previously in this thread)

Sammuti Sangha is made of living men (Bhikkhu) and women (Bhikkhuni) in the past and present that wearing the robes and observe Vinaya rules.

For example, Ven. Nanamoli Thera (in the past), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (present day), Ven. Dhammanando (present day), etc.

Ariya Sangha consists of Sotapattimagga attainer, Sotapattiphala attainer, Sakadagami magga attainer, Sakadagamiphala attainer, Anagamimagga attainer, Anagamiphala attainer, Arahattamagga attainer, and Arahattaphala attainer; in the past or present. Not necessarily human being.

For example, past: Ven. Punna Mantaniputta Thera, Ven. Sivali Thera, Ven. Vajira Theri, Ven. Rahulamata Theri (monastics); Janavasabha Devaputta, Vessavana Maharaja, Sakka Devaraja (deva layfollowers); Citta the householder, Velukantaki Nandamata lady, Suppabuddha the leper (human layfollowers), many more... including present day monastics & layfollowers (which I have no knowledge).

So, when I take refuge, I take refuge in Sangha as described in Sanghaguna, which indicated Ariyasangha.

Didn’t Ven. Dhammanando disrobe to get married?
How can we seek protection from robed ariya when none of them announce attainments?

Then that would be excluded. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

My question stands.... how does one seek protection from ariya sangha when the majority do not identify as such, and the robed ones that do to layman are committing offence and the layman who identify as ariya are persecuted and ridiculed? What is the refuge one possibly receives from these gems of individuals?
Isn’t it much more likely that taking refuge is an internal practice and the religious aspect of the ordained sangha is more of a superficial or ritualistic refuge that although beneficial is not really the refuge that Buddha is describing which leads to liberation?
From the attadippa sutta:
“Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.”

[Sam Vara]

Didn’t Ven. Dhammanando disrobe to get married?
How can we seek protection from robed ariya when none of them announce attainments?

Then that would be excluded. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

My question stands.... how does one seek protection from ariya sangha when the majority do not identify as such, and the robed ones that do to layman are committing offence and the layman who identify as ariya are persecuted and ridiculed? What is the refuge one possibly receives from these gems of individuals?

One goes for refuge. That doesn't necessarily mean that one seeks out particular individuals who one knows or believe to be ariya. But believing that there is such a thing as an ariyasangha, one places one's trust and confidence in it. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a very nice article on this:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#ref4

Though the way of life laid down for the monastic order, with its emphasis on renunciation and meditation, is most conducive to attaining the state of an ariyan, the monastic Sangha and the ariyan Sangha are not coextensive. Their makeup can differ, and that for two reasons: first, because many monks — the vast majority in fact — are still worldlings (puthujjana) and thence cannot function as a refuge; and second, because the ariyan Sangha can also include laymen. Membership in the ariyan Sangha depends solely on spiritual achievement and not on formal ordination. Anyone — layman or monk — who penetrates the Buddha's teaching by direct vision gains admission through that very attainment itself

So laymen (and women) who are genuinely ariya are part of the ariyasangha to which one goes for refuge.

According to monks who have performed the going for refuge ceremony, one useful and inspirational thing to recollect is that the noble sangha represent the potential of ordinary human beings to make spiritual progress. They all heard the Dhamma from the Buddha; and they all make the right type.

[thepea]

Then that would be excluded. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

My question stands.... how does one seek protection from ariya sangha when the majority do not identify as such, and the robed ones that do to layman are committing offence and the layman who identify as ariya are persecuted and ridiculed? What is the refuge one possibly receives from these gems of individuals?

One goes for refuge. That doesn't necessarily mean that one seeks out particular individuals who one knows or believe to be ariya. But believing that there is such a thing as an ariyasangha, one places one's trust and confidence in it. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a very nice article on this:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#ref4

Though the way of life laid down for the monastic order, with its emphasis on renunciation and meditation, is most conducive to attaining the state of an ariyan, the monastic Sangha and the ariyan Sangha are not coextensive. Their makeup can differ, and that for two reasons: first, because many monks — the vast majority in fact — are still worldlings (puthujjana) and thence cannot function as a refuge; and second, because the ariyan Sangha can also include laymen. Membership in the ariyan Sangha depends solely on spiritual achievement and not on formal ordination. Anyone — layman or monk — who penetrates the Buddha's teaching by direct vision gains admission through that very attainment itself

So laymen (and women) who are genuinely ariya are part of the ariyasangha to which one goes for refuge.

According to monks who have performed the going for refuge ceremony, one useful and inspirational thing to recollect is that the noble sangha represent the potential of ordinary human beings to make spiritual progress. They all heard the Dhamma from the Buddha; and they all make the right type.

I have never heard Buddha dhamma teaching to put faith(belief) or to seek refuge in anything external. I have only heard to see three characteristics in this. It is here to pass away, because of this it cannot satisfy your needs and this is not who you think you are.
How is seeking refuge in anything external of liberative benefits?
Illusionary temporary benefit as a momentary lifting of ones spirits, but this is a dangerous game to play if liberation is ones goal. If continuity and pleasure seeking in samsara is ones goal then yes, the temporary lifting of spirits feels good.
But when one sits to do the most serious work liberating ones soul and seeks protection in triple gem an external belief is not what Buddha intended.
The danger with religion/belief or faith is it’s only ever meant to be the initial spark. One should experience the wisdom of the dhamma very quickly upon practice. This should replace faith with experiential wisdom.
The refuge is within.

[Sam Vara]

My question stands.... how does one seek protection from ariya sangha when the majority do not identify as such, and the robed ones that do to layman are committing offence and the layman who identify as ariya are persecuted and ridiculed? What is the refuge one possibly receives from these gems of individuals?

One goes for refuge. That doesn't necessarily mean that one seeks out particular individuals who one knows or believe to be ariya. But believing that there is such a thing as an ariyasangha, one places one's trust and confidence in it. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a very nice article on this:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#ref4

Though the way of life laid down for the monastic order, with its emphasis on renunciation and meditation, is most conducive to attaining the state of an ariyan, the monastic Sangha and the ariyan Sangha are not coextensive. Their makeup can differ, and that for two reasons: first, because many monks — the vast majority in fact — are still worldlings (puthujjana) and thence cannot function as a refuge; and second, because the ariyan Sangha can also include laymen. Membership in the ariyan Sangha depends solely on spiritual achievement and not on formal ordination. Anyone — layman or monk — who penetrates the Buddha's teaching by direct vision gains admission through that very attainment itself

So laymen (and women) who are genuinely ariya are part of the ariyasangha to which one goes for refuge.

According to monks who have performed the going for refuge ceremony, one useful and inspirational thing to recollect is that the noble sangha represent the potential of ordinary human beings to make spiritual progress. They all heard the Dhamma from the Buddha; and they all make the right type.

I have never heard Buddha dhamma teaching to put faith(belief) or to seek refuge in anything external. I have only heard to see three characteristics in this. It is here to pass away, because of this it cannot satisfy your needs and this is not who you think you are.
How is seeking refuge in anything external of liberative benefits?

I don't know about internal and external, but this sutta seems to be "Buddha dhamma teaching" (it's SN 55.4) which says that confidence in the Triple Gem is a necessary requirement for stream entry:

At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.
Then in the late afternoon, Venerable Ānanda came out of retreat … and said to Sāriputta:

“Reverend, how many things do people have to possess in order for the Buddha to declare that they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening?”

“Reverend, people have to possess four things in order for the Buddha to declare that they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.

What four?
It’s when a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha …
the teaching …
the Saṅgha …
And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion.
People have to possess these four things in order for the Buddha to declare that they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”

[thepea]

One goes for refuge. That doesn't necessarily mean that one seeks out particular individuals who one knows or believe to be ariya. But believing that there is such a thing as an ariyasangha, one places one's trust and confidence in it. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a very nice article on this:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#ref4



So laymen (and women) who are genuinely ariya are part of the ariyasangha to which one goes for refuge.

According to monks who have performed the going for refuge ceremony, one useful and inspirational thing to recollect is that the noble sangha represent the potential of ordinary human beings to make spiritual progress. They all heard the Dhamma from the Buddha; and they all make the right type.

I have never heard Buddha dhamma teaching to put faith(belief) or to seek refuge in anything external. I have only heard to see three characteristics in this. It is here to pass away, because of this it cannot satisfy your needs and this is not who you think you are.
How is seeking refuge in anything external of liberative benefits?

I don't know about internal and external, but this sutta seems to be "Buddha dhamma teaching" (it's SN 55.4) which says that confidence in the Triple Gem is a necessary requirement for stream entry:

At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.
Then in the late afternoon, Venerable Ānanda came out of retreat … and said to Sāriputta:

“Reverend, how many things do people have to possess in order for the Buddha to declare that they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening?”

“Reverend, people have to possess four things in order for the Buddha to declare that they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.

What four?
It’s when a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha …
the teaching …
the Saṅgha …
And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion.
People have to possess these four things in order for the Buddha to declare that they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”

Experiential confidence is not mere faith. It’s the faith(spark) transformed to experiential wisdom.