What does sangha mean to you?

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SarathW
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by SarathW »

Mumfie wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:51 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:43 am The second one is not in my opinion.
The way I understand any person at least has attained a Sotapanna state.
So all the participants in the second example were Ariya.
The dialogue draws attention to the fact that all the bhikkhus in that particular bhikkhusaṅgha happened to be at least sotāpannas. But there would be no need for such highlighting if being ariyan were an attribute of all persons everywhere termed “bhikkhusaṅgha” (as alleged by Noble Disciple).
Is it possible there are two types of Sangha?
Ariya Sangha and Sangha?
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Mumfie
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by Mumfie »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 am Is it possible there are two types of Sangha?
Ariya Sangha and Sangha?
In the suttas it's the bhikkhusaṅgha / bhikkhunīsaṅgha and the sāvakasaṅgha.

In later texts the first two get called the sammutisaṅgha and the last the ariyasaṅgha.

That they are different can be seen from the fact that although every bhikkhu is a member of the bhikkhusaṅgha, not every bhikkhu possesses the nine special qualities that the suttas ascribe to the sāvakasaṅgha. Also, not every bhikkhu is one of the “the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals.”

“The saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples is practicing the good way, practicing the straight way, practicing the true way, practicing the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals—this saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.”
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
SarathW
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by SarathW »

Mumfie wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:13 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:37 am Is it possible there are two types of Sangha?
Ariya Sangha and Sangha?
In the suttas it's the bhikkhusaṅgha / bhikkhunīsaṅgha and the sāvakasaṅgha.

In later texts the first two get called the sammutisaṅgha and the last the ariyasaṅgha.

That they are different can be seen from the fact that although every bhikkhu is a member of the bhikkhusaṅgha, not every bhikkhu possesses the nine special qualities that the suttas ascribe to the sāvakasaṅgha. Also, not every bhikkhu is one of the “the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals.”

“The saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples is practicing the good way, practicing the straight way, practicing the true way, practicing the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals—this saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.”
Interesting.
So when you take the three refuges you take the refuge of Ariyasangha.
Even if you don't know who is Ariya but still you take refuge in the qualities of the Ariya Sangha.
If you can’t recollect the teaching, then recollect the Saṅgha:

‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, direct, methodical, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for
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Noble Sangha
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Mumfie wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:33 am
From the Vinaya:

“Venerables, the four rules on defeat have been recited. If a bhikkhu commits any one of them, he is no longer part of the bhikkhusaṅgha.”
Can you please link / source this quote / what's mentioned directly from the Tipitaka?

Thanks
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Radix
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:34 pm I'm not. I'm accusing you of making this up. You frequently post about monasticism and Buddhism in general in a way that makes me think that your contact with real life monastics is minimal, or fantasised.
1. I replied to the question exactly as it was stated.
Not to some question you imagine.

Reading comprehension has never been your forte. No surprise -- some forty years into Buddhism, and you're still not sure whether it is true or not. You lost the plot.

2. When a person is accused of sealioning, they are supposed to shut up, lest making themselves guilty as accused again.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Mumfie
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by Mumfie »

Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:45 am Can you please link / source this quote / what's mentioned directly from the Tipitaka?
It's from the section on the fourth pā­rāji­kasi­k­khā­pada in the Pārājikakaṇḍa of the Suttavibhaṅga of the Vinaya Piṭaka.

Bh. Brahmali's translation

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pj4/en/brahmali

“Venerables, the four rules on expulsion have been recited. If a monk commits any one of them, he is no longer part of the community of monks. As before, so after: he’s expelled and excluded from the community. ”
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
thepea
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by thepea »

wenjaforever wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:37 am
thepea wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:03 pm Can the deeper meaning of sangha be the mind?

Buddha did not create the sangha but rather established the sangha.
Establish meaning to found on a permanent basis. As his rediscovery of the eternal Nibanna.
The Buddha established the mind through rediscovery of its eternal quality Nibanna.
Sangha is just a means to transfer knowledge
Could you expand in this, as I have come to see sangha to mean community or mind we carry.
San in pali is the “good and bad things we acquire”. The noble sangha are the enlightened qualities of mind.
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by wenjaforever »

thepea wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:12 am
Could you expand in this, as I have come to see sangha to mean community or mind we carry.
San in pali is the “good and bad things we acquire”. The noble sangha are the enlightened qualities of mind.
Have you studied history in school? This was 500 BC. Very early iron age in India. Sangha basically means school, to study the dhamma.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by Mumfie »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:36 am So when you take the three refuges you take the refuge of Ariyasangha.
Hopefully. Though once having gone for refuge in that sense (which is reckoned the highest), one's refuge-going doesn't become subverted if later one goes for refuge in one of the lower senses:
Catubbidha-ariyamaggasamaṅgīnaṃ catusāmaññaphala-samadhivāsita-khandhasantānānañca puggalānaṃ samūho diṭṭhisīlasaṅghātena saṃhatattā saṅgho.

The group made up of persons who possess the fourfold noble path, who are composed of aggregate-continuums fully furnished with the fruits of a samaṇa's life is called “the saṅgha”, on account of its combining the concurrence of right view and virtue.

Vuttañcetaṃ bhagavatā:
“Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, ānanda, ye vo mayā dhammā abhiññā desitā, seyyathidaṃ, cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, passasi no tvaṃ, ānanda, imesu dhammesu dvepi bhikkhū nānāvāde” ti.


And this was said by the Blessed One:
“How do you conceive this, Ānanda? Those dhammas that have been taught by me after directly knowing them, namely, the four arousings of mindfulness, the four right endeavours, the four bases of success, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven enlightenment factors and the noble eightfold path: do you see, Ānanda, even two monks who have differing theories about these dhammas?”

Ayañhi paramatthasaṅgho saraṇanti gamanīyo. Sutte ca “āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṃ puññakkhettaṃ lokassā” ti vutto.

Indeed it is this saṅgha, taken in the highest sense of the term, that must be gone to for refuge – the saṅgha that in the suttas is described as, “worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings and worthy of reverential salutation, as the incomparable field of merit for the world.”

Etaṃ pana saraṇaṃ gatassa aññasmimpi bhikkhusaṅghe vā bhikkhunisaṅghe vā buddhappamukhe vā saṅghe sammutisaṅghe vā catuvaggādibhede ekapuggalepi vā bhagavantaṃ uddissa pabbajite vandanādikiriyāya saraṇagamanaṃ neva bhijjati na saṃkilissati.

Having gone for refuge to this saṅgha [conceived in the highest sense of the term], one's act of refuge-going will not later become broken or defiled by the act of showing reverence, etc., to some other subordinate kind of refuge, such as a saṅgha of bhikkhus, a saṅgha of bhikkhunīs, a saṅgha with the Buddha at its head, or to the conventional saṅgha, classed as consisting of a chapter of four, a chapter of five, a chapter of ten, etc., or even when consisting of a single person gone forth under the Blessed One.

(Khuddakapatha Atthakathā on the tisaraṇa-gamana)
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
SarathW
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by SarathW »

Mumfie wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:12 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:36 am So when you take the three refuges you take the refuge of Ariyasangha.
Hopefully. Though once having gone for refuge in that sense (which is reckoned the highest), one's refuge-going doesn't become subverted if later one goes for refuge in one of the lower senses:
Catubbidha-ariyamaggasamaṅgīnaṃ catusāmaññaphala-samadhivāsita-khandhasantānānañca puggalānaṃ samūho diṭṭhisīlasaṅghātena saṃhatattā saṅgho.

The group made up of persons who possess the fourfold noble path, who are composed of aggregate-continuums fully furnished with the fruits of a samaṇa's life is called “the saṅgha”, on account of its combining the concurrence of right view and virtue.

Vuttañcetaṃ bhagavatā:
“Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, ānanda, ye vo mayā dhammā abhiññā desitā, seyyathidaṃ, cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, passasi no tvaṃ, ānanda, imesu dhammesu dvepi bhikkhū nānāvāde” ti.


And this was said by the Blessed One:
“How do you conceive this, Ānanda? Those dhammas that have been taught by me after directly knowing them, namely, the four arousings of mindfulness, the four right endeavours, the four bases of success, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven enlightenment factors and the noble eightfold path: do you see, Ānanda, even two monks who have differing theories about these dhammas?”

Ayañhi paramatthasaṅgho saraṇanti gamanīyo. Sutte ca “āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṃ puññakkhettaṃ lokassā” ti vutto.

Indeed it is this saṅgha, taken in the highest sense of the term, that must be gone to for refuge – the saṅgha that in the suttas is described as, “worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings and worthy of reverential salutation, as the incomparable field of merit for the world.”

Etaṃ pana saraṇaṃ gatassa aññasmimpi bhikkhusaṅghe vā bhikkhunisaṅghe vā buddhappamukhe vā saṅghe sammutisaṅghe vā catuvaggādibhede ekapuggalepi vā bhagavantaṃ uddissa pabbajite vandanādikiriyāya saraṇagamanaṃ neva bhijjati na saṃkilissati.

Having gone for refuge to this saṅgha [conceived in the highest sense of the term], one's act of refuge-going will not later become broken or defiled by the act of showing reverence, etc., to some other subordinate kind of refuge, such as a saṅgha of bhikkhus, a saṅgha of bhikkhunīs, a saṅgha with the Buddha at its head, or to the conventional saṅgha, classed as consisting of a chapter of four, a chapter of five, a chapter of ten, etc., or even when consisting of a single person gone forth under the Blessed One.

(Khuddakapatha Atthakathā on the tisaraṇa-gamana)
Thanks.
I can't recall reading this before.
:anjali:
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Mumfie
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by Mumfie »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:31 am Thanks.
I can't recall reading this before.
You wouldn't have had a chance to read it before, because it didn't exist until an hour ago. :lol:

(I took Ñānamoli's translation in Minor Readings and Illustrator and rewrote it in somewhat less stilted English).
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
SarathW
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by SarathW »

Mumfie wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:45 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:31 am Thanks.
I can't recall reading this before.
You wouldn't have had a chance to read it before, because it didn't exist until an hour ago. :lol:

(I took Ñānamoli's translation in Minor Readings and Illustrator and rewrote it in somewhat less stilted English).
Thanks, you are a gem! :twothumbsup:
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by Ontheway »

I understand that there are two types of Sangha: sammuti and Ariya (like what mentioned previously in this thread)

Sammuti Sangha is made of living men (Bhikkhu) and women (Bhikkhuni) in the past and present that wearing the robes and observe Vinaya rules.

For example, Ven. Nanamoli Thera (in the past), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (present day), Ven. Dhammanando (present day), etc.

Ariya Sangha consists of Sotapattimagga attainer, Sotapattiphala attainer, Sakadagami magga attainer, Sakadagamiphala attainer, Anagamimagga attainer, Anagamiphala attainer, Arahattamagga attainer, and Arahattaphala attainer; in the past or present. Not necessarily human being.

For example, past: Ven. Punna Mantaniputta Thera, Ven. Sivali Thera, Ven. Vajira Theri, Ven. Rahulamata Theri (monastics); Janavasabha Devaputta, Vessavana Maharaja, Sakka Devaraja (deva layfollowers); Citta the householder, Velukantaki Nandamata lady, Suppabuddha the leper (human layfollowers), many more... including present day monastics & layfollowers (which I have no knowledge).

So, when I take refuge, I take refuge in Sangha as described in Sanghaguna, which indicated Ariyasangha.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:05 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:34 pm I'm not. I'm accusing you of making this up. You frequently post about monasticism and Buddhism in general in a way that makes me think that your contact with real life monastics is minimal, or fantasised.
1. I replied to the question exactly as it was stated.
Not to some question you imagine.
Sorry, I'll try to be clearer. If, when asked what Sangha means to you, you reply:
A bunch of people who expect me to give them money, to do them favors, to do the dirty work for them, and who don't care whether I live or die.
there could be three reasons for this. The first is that this is your understanding of how the word is used; that you are merely explicating the meaning inherent in the Pali word. The second is that you have experienced in real life a thing called a Sangha which does these things, and you are reporting on it. The third is that you have experienced in your mind an idea of a thing called a Sangha which does these things, and you are reporting on your ideas. I don't think the first is tenable, so I'm working on a process of elimination.
Reading comprehension has never been your forte. No surprise -- some forty years into Buddhism, and you're still not sure whether it is true or not. You lost the plot.
It's a poor excuse I know, but Alan Bennett once said that one's style is the sum of one's defects.
When a person is accused of sealioning, they are supposed to shut up, lest making themselves guilty as accused again.
If we're aiming at precision, this isn't necessarily true. One can only be guilty as accused again if one was guilty of the first offence. I don't want to derail this thread by getting into a discussion of what "sealioning" is (you can start a new topic or PM me if you like) but I said already that I wasn't sealioning.

If you just want to shut people up and prevent them from questioning what you say, you might want to try saying "Expelliarmus!" or wearing garlic around your neck instead.
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Re: What does sangha mean to you?

Post by justindesilva »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:02 am I understand that there are two types of Sangha: sammuti and Ariya (like what mentioned previously in this thread)

Sammuti Sangha is made of living men (Bhikkhu) and women (Bhikkhuni) in the past and present that wearing the robes and observe Vinaya rules.

For example, Ven. Nanamoli Thera (in the past), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (present day), Ven. Dhammanando (present day), etc.

Ariya Sangha consists of Sotapattimagga attainer, Sotapattiphala attainer, Sakadagami magga attainer, Sakadagamiphala attainer, Anagamimagga attainer, Anagamiphala attainer, Arahattamagga attainer, and Arahattaphala attainer; in the past or present. Not necessarily human being.

For example, past: Ven. Punna Mantaniputta Thera, Ven. Sivali Thera, Ven. Vajira Theri, Ven. Rahulamata Theri (monastics); Janavasabha Devaputta, Vessavana Maharaja, Sakka Devaraja (deva layfollowers); Citta the householder, Velukantaki Nandamata lady, Suppabuddha the leper (human layfollowers), many more... including present day monastics & layfollowers (which I have no knowledge).

So, when I take refuge, I take refuge in Sangha as described in Sanghaguna, which indicated Ariyasangha.
There is no evident criteria in identifying today of ariya sangha or sammuti sangha
Today we cannot accept the demand of those who say we are arya .A few in forest monasteries follow sila monastically in hiding . The few or many in villages are bent on education or some in social service .
The present sangha community is after uposatha called samanera but ordained further as upasampada with hundreds of precepts to observe . Those upasampada publicly breaking vinaya . We lay buddhists only have to venerate a sangha society just to uphold buddhist but still talking about the past sangha as existed . When we pronounce sanghan saranam gacccami do or can be we really honestly cry it out .
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