what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Ceisiwr
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 2:10 pm Is there no one on the Abhidhamma form who can give me a simple answer? If your teachings are so sophisticated, what good is it to the farmer, or the housewife? Sutra Pitaka often says Buddha taught ordinary people, also, and some became sotapannas right away.
For the most part he taught ordinary folks simple Dhamma. 5 precepts, good rebirth and the like. I don't think the Buddha taught Abhidhamma, but even if he did there isn't anything to suggest that farmers or housewives would have heard it from him.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

This notion that "the common man," be it farmers, miners, Joe the Plumber, or Bob the Builder, was the primary audience of the Buddha is ludicrous. He taught śramaṇas: spiritual specialists. Sūtras addressed to a rhetorical "Builder Bob" or "Farmer Frank" are in the extreme minority.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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retrofuturist
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:42 pm This notion that "the common man," be it farmers, miners, Joe the Plumber, or Bob the Builder, was the primary audience of the Buddha is ludicrous. He taught śramaṇas: spiritual specialists. Sūtras addressed to a rhetorical "Builder Bob" or "Farmer Frank" are in the extreme minority.
Bodom has kindly compiled a collection of Suttas For The Householder. I find it useful to know what teachings the Buddha gave to householders versus the ordained, for they are not the same.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ontheway
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ontheway »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:40 pm Ontheway, I asked a simple question.
How does suffering arise?
I did not ask how it ceases. Your vast knowledge regarding
  • Bahiranidana chapter of Samantapasadika:
  • Uttaravipattisuttaṃ (Aṅguttaranikāya),
  • Nine Aspects of Teaching,
  • Visuddhimagga
what good are they? you are unable to give a simple answer to the simple question "How does suffering arise?"
Regards :candle:
In that case, you are incompetent even in Pariyatti. Let alone Patipatti and Pativeda.

For the Blessed One clearly said in Paṭiccasamuppāda:
Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakhandhassa samudayo hoti.
And the full details can be found in Abhidhamma Pitaka - Vibhanga, containing both Suttantabhajaniya and Abhidhammabhajaniya analysis.

And you said "what good are they?"

They are good because they are the system, doctrinal aspects, history of the Saddhamma proclaimed by the Blessed One. We layfollowers will need to make effort to study, familiarise and practice the Saddhamma.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Pulsar
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu
When did I say laymen (common man/ordinary man) were Buddha's primary audience?
I did not refer to the following.
Joe the Plumber? that would be odd. Miners??? Builder Bob, Farmer Frank?
You make these chats interesting (that element of exaggeration), not as much as DooDoot did. Doo Doot however would have brought in a couple of suttas as support, to whatever he said. I miss this element of his contributions to DW.
  • "Words of the Buddha"
Now let me think without exaggerating, Sutta pitaka refers to
1. Ghatikara the Potter, but Gathikara was not a plumber.
The canon refers to
2. A stupid Brahmin Parasariya whose pupil Uttara, that Buddha interacted with. Uttara had this ludicrous belief, that meditators lose, ordinary eyesight (not the dhamma eye), ordinary hearing (not the divine ear), during meditation. An excerpt from MN 152.
If that is so Uttara, then a blind man and a deaf man will have developed faculties according to what the Brahmin Parasariya says.
sutta writes.
But it is funny, 2600 years later people on chat groups still say people engaged in meditation, should lose their hearing????
Do people misinterpret Suttas due to the influence of Abhidhamma?
Another layman to add to the list of layman.
3. Buddha taught an elephant driver's son Pesala. He was not a plumbers son. I cannot find Bob the builder or Bob the elephant driver's son.
But give this sutta a read MN 51.
I find suttas far more useful than Abhidhamma. In MN 51, there is a discussion of Samma sati of the 8-fold path. It is not a teaching on 5 precepts to the layman.
Following excerpt is mind-blowing.
Pesala says to Buddha
"It is wonderful sir, it is marvelous how amid man's tangle,
corruptions, and deceptions, the Blessed One knows
the welfare and harm of human
beings"
"I can drive a elephant to be tamed ....elephant will show every kind of deception duplicity, crookedness and fraud" but humans are far more duplicitous, for the humankind is a tangle, but the animal is open enough.
  • Pesala must have been an extraordinary layman to notice that animals are far less duplicitous than humans.
Coemgenu, My time is limited. Next time I will bring you the story of Mary the housewife, who became a non-returner after listening to Dhamma. Mary? Do we care about names?
Regards :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:51 amI did not refer to the following.
Joe the Plumber? that would be odd. Miners??? Builder Bob, Farmer Frank?
You weren't quoted as referring to Bob, Joe, Frank, etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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zerotime
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by zerotime »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:21 pm For the most part he taught ordinary folks simple Dhamma. 5 precepts, good rebirth and the like. I don't think the Buddha taught Abhidhamma, but even if he did there isn't anything to suggest that farmers or housewives would have heard it from him.
some type of proto-abhidhamma was learned in Buddha times. Not only because the memorization techniques using chains of terms that we check inside Suttas, which clearly favors an analytic framework of this style. Also because the special titles given for some arhants, like in example "the best in analysis" (case of Dhammadhina) and similar ones. These titles for specific arhants would lack of sense without its specific distinction, in this case the mastery of the analytic teaching, which obviously also implies a background in the ariya progress of these arhants. And some of them were lay followers who joined the order at the anagamin stage.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

zerotime wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:21 pm For the most part he taught ordinary folks simple Dhamma. 5 precepts, good rebirth and the like. I don't think the Buddha taught Abhidhamma, but even if he did there isn't anything to suggest that farmers or housewives would have heard it from him.
some type of proto-abhidhamma was learned in Buddha times. Not only because the memorization techniques using chains of terms that we check inside Suttas, which clearly favors an analytic framework of this style. Also because the special titles given for some arhants, like in example "the best in analysis" (case of Dhammadhina) and similar ones. These titles for specific arhants would lack of sense without its specific distinction, in this case the mastery of the analytic teaching, which obviously also implies a background in the ariya progress of these arhants. And some of them were lay followers who joined the order at the anagamin stage.
By Abhidhamma I mean as we have it today. Proto-Abhidhamma was, IMO, simply a way of organising what the Buddha taught.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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zerotime
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by zerotime »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:38 pm By Abhidhamma I mean as we have it today. Proto-Abhidhamma was, IMO, simply a way of organising what the Buddha taught.
well but still this would be the Abhidhamma purpose today. Inside Abhidhamma texts there is no claim to be a new Buddha teaching or some rectification.
From what I know, the people who follow Abhidhamma they believe in the progress by discernment of Dhamma by learning the organization of its factors and processes. Where is the error in that?. I mean this procedure appears inside the Suttas.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

zerotime wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:38 pm By Abhidhamma I mean as we have it today. Proto-Abhidhamma was, IMO, simply a way of organising what the Buddha taught.
well but still this would be the Abhidhamma purpose today. Inside Abhidhamma texts there is no claim to be a new Buddha teaching or some rectification.
From what I know, the people who follow Abhidhamma they believe in the progress by discernment of Dhamma by learning the organization of its factors and processes. Where is the error in that?. I mean this procedure appears inside the Suttas.
That is of course still a part of the Abhidhamma, but it has grown further since then and developed ideas of it's own. For example, the whole Paṭṭhāna. In the associated commentaries the concept of sabhāva, momentariness and so on.

If you compare the proto-Abhidhamma of DN 33 with the Abhidhamma texts, you can notice the differences. The Abhidhamma texts are more developed, whilst DN 33 is a simpler form of Abhidhamma. DN 33 is just organising material for memorisation. Abhidhamma takes this and develops into an attempt to map the whole of reality. And of course, different traditions developed their own maps of reality. Many of them wouldn't have even known about the Theravādin attempt via the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, Paṭṭhāna etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Eko Care »

zerotime wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:33 pm some type of proto-abhidhamma was learned in Buddha times. Not only because the memorization techniques using chains of terms that we check inside Suttas, which clearly favors an analytic framework of this style. Also because the special titles given for some arhants, like in example "the best in analysis" (case of Dhammadhina) and similar ones. These titles for specific arhants would lack of sense without its specific distinction, in this case the mastery of the analytic teaching, which obviously also implies a background in the ariya progress of these arhants. And some of them were lay followers who joined the order at the anagamin stage.
zerotime wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: By Abhidhamma I mean as we have it today. Proto-Abhidhamma was, IMO, simply a way of organising what the Buddha taught.
well but still this would be the Abhidhamma purpose today. Inside Abhidhamma texts there is no claim to be a new Buddha teaching or some rectification.
From what I know, the people who follow Abhidhamma they believe in the progress by discernment of Dhamma by learning the organization of its factors and processes. Where is the error in that?. I mean this procedure appears inside the Suttas.
:goodpost:

Analysis is necessary in every field.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:25 pm

Analysis is necessary in every field.
Nothing wrong in examining what words mean and offering definitions for clarity. In this regard the Vibhaṅga can be quite useful, as can non-Theravādin Abhidharma texts. Personally I sometimes also refer to the Abhidharma-samuccaya of Venerable Asaṅga, which might be based on the Mahīśāsaka Abhidharma, in order to clarify a term.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by robertk »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:21 pm For the most part he taught ordinary folks simple Dhamma. 5 precepts, good rebirth and the like. I don't think the Buddha taught Abhidhamma, but even if he did there isn't anything to suggest that farmers or housewives would have heard it from him.

According to the Commentary the ordinary folks were numerous and had attainments:

Book I. Pairs, Yamaka Vagga


I. 1. “If Thine Eye Offend Thee, Pluck It Out”
Cakkhupālattheravatthu (1)


1. Thought is of all things first, thought is of all things foremost, of thought are all things made.
If with thought corrupt a man speak or act,
Suffering follows him, even as a wheel follows the hoof of the beast of burden.


Where was this religious instruction given? At Sāvatthi. With reference to whom? Cakkhupāla the Elder.....

At this time the Teacher, having set in motion the glorious Wheel of the Law, after journeying from place to place, took up his residence at Jetavana,

At this time seventy million people dwelt in Sāvatthi. Of these, fifty million became Noble Disciples after hearing the discourse of the Teacher, but twenty million remained unconverted
. The Noble Disciples had two duties: before breakfast they gave alms; after breakfast, bearing perfumes and garlands in their hands, with [28.148] servants bearing garments, medicaments, and beverages, they went to hear the Law
.
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zerotime
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by zerotime »

robertk wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:43 am According to the Commentary the ordinary folks were numerous and had attainments:
yes, no special differences in practice and attaintments

Views of householders and lay disciples in the Sutta Pitaka
https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/podzim2008/R ... s_1999.pdf

Laymen Saints
http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmaf ... s-piya.pdf
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Dear robertk you had referred to a comment I made here on another thread.
When
  • I noticed this anomaly, why there and note here? I asked you kindly to bring the conversation back to the thread of its origin.
meaning right here on this thread.
and
  • I specifically requested you to respond, and not anyone else.
    You did not respond, but instead Eco Care responded, as below
Eko Care wrote there
Pulsar wrote:
The context in which a comment gets made can get butchered when one resorts to moving a comment from one thread to another.
You have already been well answered in the very thread and context.
Apart from that, RobertK's answer given to your question is valid in any context.
I am sure you do not need Eko Care to be your mouthpiece. You are a well respected moderator on this forum.
Did you ask him to respond on your behalf? Or did he appoint himself as your mouth piece
since you were taking time to respond to me?

Pl answer on this thread.
I am afraid to interact with some people on this forum, and Eko Care is one of them. They have a strange way of intimidating people. I recall asking on this thread
"What good is abhidhmma to a person who understands the 8-fold path and DO"
His response? you can read it on this thread. He bullies and intimidates people. When I think of his insults to V. Sujato, I cringe.
So pl. do not let Eko Care be your mouth piece.
Perhaps you can answer my more pressing question here and nowhere else?
"What good is abhidhmma to a person who understands the 8-fold path and Dependent
Origination of Suffering as Buddha taught it"

Regards :candle:
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