what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
Post Reply
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by robertk »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:18 pm Dear robertk you had referred to a comment I made here on another thread.
When
  • I noticed this anomaly, why there and note here? I asked you kindly to bring the conversation back to the thread of its origin.
meaning right here on this thread.
and
  • I specifically requested you to respond, and not anyone else.
    You did not respond, but instead Eco Care responded, as below
Eko Care wrote there
Pulsar wrote:
The context in which a comment gets made can get butchered when one resorts to moving a comment from one thread to another.
You have already been well answered in the very thread and context.
Apart from that, RobertK's answer given to your question is valid in any context.
I am sure you do not need Eko Care to be your mouthpiece. You are a well respected moderator on this forum.
Did you ask him to respond on your behalf? Or did he appoint himself as your mouth piece
since you were taking time to respond to me?

Pl answer on this thread.
I am afraid to interact with some people on this forum, and Eko Care is one of them. They have a strange way of intimidating people. I recall asking on this thread
"What good is abhidhmma to a person who understands the 8-fold path and DO"
His response? you can read it on this thread. He bullies and intimidates people. When I think of his insults to V. Sujato, I cringe.
So pl. do not let Eko Care be your mouth piece.
Perhaps you can answer my more pressing question here and nowhere else?
"What good is abhidhmma to a person who understands the 8-fold path and Dependent
Origination of Suffering as Buddha taught it"

Regards :candle:
Sorry I overlooked replying to your post but no, I never asked ekocare to respond. However nothing wrong with members citing old posts from me or anyone else to fortify a point I think. Provided it is done to clarify it can be useful .

It is getting late now so I will try to give a full answer to your comment tomorrow 🙂
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Eko Care »

Pulsar wrote: He bullies and intimidates people. When I think of his insults to V. Sujato, I cringe.
It is a
  • Personal attack
  • Releasing pain of getting defeated in a debate, on other people
When one's view or his Guru monk's view is getting rejected, pain naturally arises.
It is not a fault of others.

It might be a difference between mere sutta approach and Tipitaka approach and not a difference between Suttas and Abhidamma.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ontheway »

Pulsar wrote
I am afraid to interact with some people on this forum, and Eko Care is one of them. They have a strange way of intimidating people. I recall asking on this thread
Playing victim card doesn't save you from being wrong.

It is your kinds started attacking the pure Sasana tradition that was set forth by the Blessed One, preserved in the councils by Arahants, then consolidated by Mahavihara lineage. Without any of these, Sasana wouldn't lasts till now.

Did the Buddha said we need to respect those who propagating falsehood and distortion of Dhamma? No.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Eko Care »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:12 pm
Pulsar wrote: .. I cringe.
It is a
  • Personal attack
  • Releasing pain of getting defeated in a debate, on other people
When one's view or his Guru monk's view is getting rejected, pain naturally arises.
It is not a fault of others.

It might be a difference between mere sutta approach and Tipitaka approach and not a difference between Suttas and Abhidamma.
Ontheway wrote: Pulsar wrote
I am afraid to interact with some people on this forum, and Eko Care is one of them. ..
Playing victim card doesn't save you from being wrong.

It is your kinds started attacking the pure Sasana tradition that was set forth by the Blessed One, preserved in the councils by Arahants, then consolidated by Mahavihara lineage. Without any of these, Sasana wouldn't lasts till now.

Did the Buddha said we need to respect those who propagating falsehood and distortion of Dhamma? No.
Dear Pulsar,
The mental state of the inability to answer the questions, naturally make one angry or painful. Getting lost in an religious debate is the same.

Instead of trying to be the saint, it is better if you focus on along the below way
"is it a false view of mine?"
"is it a pain arisen due to losing?"
"is it a pain arisen due to the inability to defend the assumption that 'Abhidhamma is unnecessary and complicated'?"
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by robertk »

Pulsar: Perhaps you can answer my more pressing question here and nowhere else?
"What good is abhidhmma to a person who understands the 8-fold path and Dependent
Origination of Suffering as Buddha taught it"

Dear Pulsar,
I like what Iggelden writes in the Intro. to the Vibhanga(Abhidhamma pitaka) (Pali text society)

“It is all very well to say ‘I know what needs to be done to break
the continuity of rebirth and death’. In fact very few people know of
even the most elementary reasons for the continuity of process, let
alone of breaking it. It is the detailed description, analysis and
reasons given for this cyclic process that the scriptures spend so
much care in putting before us.
It is all very well to say ‘What do I want to know all these
definitions of terms for, it only clutters the mind?’The question is,
though, how many people when they seriously ask themselves as to the
extent and range of some such apparently simple terms as greed,
hatred and ignorance, can know their full and proper implications and
manifestations within their own thoughts and actions…This the
scriptures are at pains to make clear to even the dullest
reader…”

And from the Commentary:

The Expositor (Atthasalini). Commentary On The Dhammasangani The First Book Of The Abhidhamma Pitaka. Translated by Pe Maung Tin. pp. 35-38,
And tradition has it that those bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of the Dhamma; the rest, though they speak on the Dhamma, are not preachers thereof. And why? They, in speaking on the Dhamma, confuse the different kinds of Kamma and of its results, the distinction between mind and matter, and the different kinds of states. The students of Abhidhamma do not thus get confused; hence a bhikkhu who knows Abhidhamma, whether he preaches the Dhamma or not, will be able to answer questions whenever asked. He alone, therefore, is a true preacher of the Dhamma.
Now having said that, if someone has truly penetrated Dependent Origination and the 8 fold path then perhaps they won't need detailed study of Abhidhamma - Indeed for those truly wise ones Abhidhamma has become something that is showing itself every moment in real time.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

So a commentary on Abhidhamma, written centuries after the Buddha praises the Abhidhamma for being the bees knees? :roll:

Do these blatantly partisan puff pieces actually resonate with anyone? It's little more than saying "we're the best because we say so". :?

Anyway, we know what that author thinks. I wonder if the author of the Suttas (i.e. the Buddha) would agree with the assessment that he is not a true preacher of the Dhamma.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

robertk wrote
Sorry I overlooked replying to your post but no, I never asked ekocare to respond. However nothing wrong with members citing old posts from me or anyone else to fortify a point I think. Provided it is done to clarify it can be useful .

It is getting late now so I will try to give a full answer to your comment tomorrow

Dear robertk I await your reply. You wrote nothing wrong with other members responding to fortify a point. True, the fact is, in that thread and elsewhere I have expressed the wish that Eko Care not interact with me.
Does he not break the rules of the forum when he continues to address me? What exactly is that rule which says when a member has expressed a wish to ignore another member or asked that member to desist from interacting further?
I ask once more Eko Care and ontheway, both, to desist from interacting with me. Dear Robert this reminds me of a sutta, when I think of it I shall post it next. In a way this whole saga brings me back to
Buddha.
Have a beautiful day! :candle:
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:39 am Greetings,

So a commentary on Abhidhamma, written centuries after the Buddha praises the Abhidhamma for being the bees knees? :roll:

Do these blatantly partisan puff pieces actually resonate with anyone? It's little more than saying "we're the best because we say so". :?

Anyway, we know what that author thinks. I wonder if the author of the Suttas (i.e. the Buddha) would agree with the assessment that he is not a true preacher of the Dhamma.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
They resonate with me as they are so true to what is happening right now, IMHO.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:53 am They resonate with me as they are so true to what is happening right now, IMHO.
Fair enough, just so long as you know that puff pieces usually don't have much appeal beyond their target base, and aren't likely to sway anyone outside of it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by robertk »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:51 am robertk wrote
Sorry I overlooked replying to your post but no, I never asked ekocare to respond. However nothing wrong with members citing old posts from me or anyone else to fortify a point I think. Provided it is done to clarify it can be useful .

It is getting late now so I will try to give a full answer to your comment tomorrow

Dear robertk I await your reply. You wrote nothing wrong with other members responding to fortify a point. True, the fact is, in that thread and elsewhere I have expressed the wish that Eko Care not interact with me.
Does he not break the rules of the forum when he continues to address me? What exactly is that rule which says when a member has expressed a wish to ignore another member or asked that member to desist from interacting further?
I ask once more Eko Care and ontheway, both, to desist from interacting with me. Dear Robert this reminds me of a sutta, when I think of it I shall post it next. In a way this whole saga brings me back to
Buddha.
Have a beautiful day! :candle:
Sorry I just noticed this. Yes other members take note. If a member, in this case Pulsar , asks you not to interact with them then please don't.
Thank you everyone.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Robertk I had not read your earlier reply, now that I read it let me respond.
You copied what someone else wrote
The question is,
though, how many people when they seriously ask themselves as to the
extent and range of some such apparently simple terms as greed,
hatred and ignorance, can know their full and proper implications and
manifestations within their own thoughts and actions…This the
scriptures are at pains to make clear to even the dullest
reader…”
When he says scriptures are at pains to make clear to even the dullest reader
is he not misrepresenting the Buddha? Can the scripture be clear to a dull person? This reveals his own ignorance.
At the beginning of the dispensation why was Buddha reluctant to begin teaching? Do you remember?
With love :candle:
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pulsar,
Pulsar wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:51 am True, the fact is, in that thread and elsewhere I have expressed the wish that Eko Care not interact with me.
I see Robert has responded to your comment as it pertains to this topic (as the provision is a topic by topic proposition) but can you please point me (via PM preferably) to the "elsewhere" that you've request Eko Care and/or anyone else not engage with you. We try to keep up, but as you can imagine, it's a totally manual process and there's been an above average number of such requests lately.

Remember also that you have the Foe available option to you if you want more universal "blockage".

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ontheway »

robertk wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:00 am
Pulsar wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:51 am robertk wrote
Sorry I overlooked replying to your post but no, I never asked ekocare to respond. However nothing wrong with members citing old posts from me or anyone else to fortify a point I think. Provided it is done to clarify it can be useful .

It is getting late now so I will try to give a full answer to your comment tomorrow

Dear robertk I await your reply. You wrote nothing wrong with other members responding to fortify a point. True, the fact is, in that thread and elsewhere I have expressed the wish that Eko Care not interact with me.
Does he not break the rules of the forum when he continues to address me? What exactly is that rule which says when a member has expressed a wish to ignore another member or asked that member to desist from interacting further?
I ask once more Eko Care and ontheway, both, to desist from interacting with me. Dear Robert this reminds me of a sutta, when I think of it I shall post it next. In a way this whole saga brings me back to
Buddha.
Have a beautiful day! :candle:
Sorry I just noticed this. Yes other members take note. If a member, in this case Pulsar , asks you not to interact with them then please don't.
Thank you everyone.
Understood.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by robertk »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:01 am When he says scriptures are at pains to make clear to even the dullest reader is he not misrepresenting the Buddha? Can the scripture be clear to a dull person? This reveals his own ignorance.
At the beginning of the dispensation why was Buddha reluctant to begin teaching? Do you remember?
With love :candle:
Dear Pulsar
Yes probably Iggelden was being generous but I think he meant that the Buddha, when he explained Abhidhamma in such detail, was helping even ones like us to grasp as much as we can, even if that is still a limited amount.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

robertk wrote
Dear Pulsar
Yes probably Iggelden was being generous
How was he being generous? by calling people like us dullards?
  • At least I am able to understand that the problems of Abhidhamma arose at the very beginning, when it changed the first step of Origination of Suffering.
To abhidhamma rupa in Nama-rupa is physical, more like the notion of Nama-rupa that prevailed in other Indian religions, at that time, in India.
I can bring you sutta examples from the early tradition, to show rupa in Nama-rupa is a mental event.
How do you understand the first step of "Origination of suffering?"
  • Rupa originates in the mind (is a mental event, a mental image) derived from physical elements, according to Buddha's original teachings.
How can one progress in meditation without this understanding?
You continued
but I think he meant that the Buddha, when he explained Abhidhamma in such detail, was helping even ones like us to grasp as much as we can, even if that is still a limited amount.
Can you bring me sutta examples from the early Theravada tradition, to show that Buddha taught abhidhamma?
Isn't it the abhidhamma specialist or the commentaries that say so?
Regards :candle:
Post Reply