what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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zerotime
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by zerotime »

Pulsar wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:20 am In the earliest tier of Suttas, Buddha defines rupa in Nama-rupa as a mental component of the embodied experience just like feeling is a mental component.
Did Buddha change his mind, halfway through the canon? and also accept Arupa samatthis as central to the release from suffering?
There is no change. When we experience the arising of namarupa, there is kamma rippening of nama and kamma rippening of rupa.

In example, when there is body pain, at that moment there is kamma rippening of nama (mental pain) and kamma rippening of rupa (body pain).

Namarupa is known as nama at the mind door level: we know a mind image(nama) of namarupa. It doesn't mean nama and rupa are both nama. The issue is when rupa cannot experience anything, rupa only can be known by means nama.

Arhants can know that difference and they don't experience dukkha when there is body pain. Because also pain is known like nama at the mind door level. And they don't experience dukkha, only body-pain. They don't keep the delusion of "my body" but are aware of the distinction between nama and rupa.

They are living the distinction of what the SN 12.2 says:
"And what is nama-rupa? Feeling, perception, intention, contact & attention: this is called nama. The four great elements, and the rupa dependent on the four great elements: this is called rupa. This nama and this rupa are called nama-rupa"
Understanding of the distinction also helps to see the logics for the existence of beings in the arupa-loka and rupa-loka realms.

At least I understand in this way
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

zero time wrote
There is no change. When we experience the arising of namarupa, there is kamma rippening of nama and kamma rippening of rupa.
In example, when there is body pain, at that moment there is kamma rippening of nama (mental pain) and kamma rippening of rupa (body pain).
How would you explain kamma ripening of rupa,
when there is no bodily pain?

Surely when Buddha was teaching of pain, his focus was not bodily pain. To heal bodily pain one must go to a physician.
Even Buddha had a personal physician to take care of those matters. Right?
Dependent Origination, the foundational teaching of Buddha, that distinguishes Buddha from other Indian teachers, is about origination of suffering in a perfectly healthy body also.
People often get the word "kaya" confused when it comes to DO. Kaya in other instances is a physical body, but not when it comes to Satipatthana or DO.
Kaya then is a worldly phenomenon. In the previous sutta Buddha addresses just this issue in the strongest possible words.
A very healthy person with absolutely no body pain, can arouse painful kayas or joyful kayas mentally dependent on his kamma
Is this not so, according to your understanding?

Perhaps many disciples in Buddha's day too misunderstood rupa of Nama-rupa, since they likely came from Brahmanic backgrounds. Therefore the strong words in sutta on Flowers? SN 22.94.
how can i do anything with that foolish worldling,
Blind and sightless,
who does not know and does not see?
Can Abhidhamma be an outcome of such a misunderstanding? since Abhidhmma classifies rupa of Nama-rupa of DO as physical body, which is not so according to Buddha.
According to your explanation,
perfectly healthy people would not be subject to suffering of the Buddhist sense. Suffering that leads to becoming? How do you understand Identification? The first step of the 8-fold path? Is that not where new suffering begins? identifying with rising mental rupa? and naming it as "I" or "mine"?
Is this not what is absent in the Arahant? Identification?
Regards :candle:
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zerotime
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by zerotime »

Pulsar wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:33 pm How would you explain kamma ripening of rupa,
when there is no bodily pain?
the kamma ripening of rupa is one of the more obvious. We should cut our hairs, our nails. We should use soaps and deodorants to hide our body smells. We should clean our ass after going to shit. That same shit is kamma rupa, what a gift. We waste a lot of time trying to avoid the effects of all the ripening of kamma rupa in order to hide our real appearance, perhaps the ugliest of all the mammals in this world.

This remember to me what a philosopher said: "Certainly, the nature is a wonderful panorama. Although to know where is our place in the spectacle, that's another issue"

Anyway, if we don't do all that daily activity to hide our real appearance, in less than one year the rest of people would run by the streets overcomed by the panic. Kamma rippening of rupa is easy to check without arising of body pain.
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

airtime wrote
the kamma ripening of rupa is one of the more obvious. We should cut our hairs, our nails. We should use soaps and deodorants to hide our body smells.
Intersting! perhaps this is how Abhidhamma explains kamma ripening. It reminds me of a sutta (let me look up)
where there was a custom in India where brahmins used to bathe in river to wash off their kamma???
I am pretty sure Buddha did not agree with that method of cleansing. Let me gather the suttas that oppose abhidhmma in this matter.
You continued
We should clean our ass after going to shit. That same shit is kamma rupa, what a gift. We waste a lot of time trying to avoid the effects of all the ripening of kamma rupa in order to hide our real appearance, perhaps the ugliest of all the mammals in this world.
I am pretty familiar with Sutra Pitaka. I do not find a single sutta that supports this.
In fact there is a fragment of Buddha's sayings that says "If you judge me by my appearance (outward), you won't find me" Ugly mammals???
In fact in order to strive for Nibbana one needs to be born in the human plane (ugly mammal), not even deva plane (too many pleasures distract one from the spiritual path)
You wrote
This remember to me what a philosopher said: "Certainly, the nature is a wonderful panorama. Although to know where is our place in the spectacle, that's another issue"
You call the mammals ugly, and then bring in a quote that says "nature is a wonderful panorama" an Oxymoron!
You wrote
Anyway, if we don't do all that daily activity to hide our real appearance, in less than one year the rest of people would run by the streets overcomed by the panic. Kamma rippening of rupa is easy to check without arising of body pain.
"By daily activity to hide our appearance?"??? do you mean proper grooming, and proper hygiene?
From what I recall the daily activity Buddha stressed relates to
  • Right view, right intention, right speech, right livelihood, right effort, Right Sati, and Right samadhi.
if one wanted to move away from samsara.
Now I see, how Suttas differ from Abhidhamma in several aspects, such as bathing (shampoo and soap) will cleanse one's kamma? Suttas never say this.
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

zerotime wrote
the kamma ripening of rupa is one of the more obvious. We should cut our hairs, our nails. We should use soaps and deodorants to hide our body smells.
Regarding cleansing in water, and stopping kamma ripening, here is Buddha's take, https://suttacentral.net/mn7/en/sujato? ... ript=latin
Vatthasutta MN 7 which confirms,
if you speak no lies and pure of heart
and clean in deed etc...
any well may be your River Gaya.
In another sutta: A Prince about to take leave of Buddha, and his servant says "It is time for your bath" and the Prince replies "I am already bathed in the Dhamma, what more bathing do I need" I can't recall the sutta number.
Here is an excerpt from MN 6
Brahmin Sundarika Bhāradvāja was sitting not far from the Buddha.  
He said to the Buddha,
“But does Master Gotama go to the river Bāhuka to bathe?”
“Brahmin, why go to the river Bāhuka?  What can the river Bāhuka do?”
“Many people agree that the river Bāhuka bestows cleanliness and merit. And many people wash off their bad deeds in the river Bāhuka.” 
Then the Buddha addressed Sundarika in verse:
 “The Bāhuka and the Adhikakka, the Gayā and the Sundarika too, Sarasvatī and Payāga, and the river Bāhumati: a fool can constantly plunge into them but it won’t purify their dark deeds. What can the Sundarika do? What the Payāga or the Bāhuka? They can’t cleanse a cruel and criminal person from their bad deeds. 
For the pure in heart it’s always the spring festival or the sabbath. For the pure in heart and clean of deed, their vows will always be fulfilled. It’s here alone that you should bathe, brahmin, making yourself a sanctuary for all creatures. And if you speak no lies, nor harm any living creature, nor steal anything not given, and you’re faithful and not stingy: what’s the point of going to Gayā? For any well may be your Gayā!”
Regards :candle:
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zerotime
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by zerotime »

Pulsar wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:08 pm Intersting! perhaps this is how Abhidhamma explains kamma ripening.
I'm sorry if the words doesn't sound polite. These reflections are no so different to those meditations on the repulsiveness on body, which can be a risky practice in a wrong moment or without expert help. However, I think some reflection in the efforts we should do to keep our body appearance also are following a similar line, and probably without those risks. Well, except perhaps in case of some Instagram addiction.

The central point is about the reality of the ripening of kamma rupa. Knowing that type of kamma is important to understand dukkha, to get more calm and detachment. The body is working by its own side, because the ripening of kamma rupa without stop. And we lack of final control on that. This includes not only the appearance but also illness, old-age and death. Very important subjects.

The Abhidhamma details on the arising of rupa are complicated. There is other people in this thread more able to explain that. I would need a book on my side to do that.
Just I wrote the previous message because before knowing those doctrinal issues, probably is necessary a remembering about these accessible facts of the existence. These can be enough to become aware about the reality of the ripening of kamma rupa in our live and not just like a literary stuff.
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

zerotime wrote
The Abhidhamma details on the arising of rupa are complicated.
This is the difference between sutta and abhidhamma.
Using suttas I've already explained how rupa originates in the mind. 
But those who are influenced by abhidhamma refuse to accept the words of the Buddha.
They insist they have their own understanding. 
When asked to explain this understanding, the typical response is
"it is too complicated"
"you need to ask the expert"
Is this why in SN 22.94 Buddha is reported as saying,
  • if anyone does not see, how can I do anything with that foolish worldling, 
    blind and sightless, who does not know and does not see?
I too studied abhidhamma for many years, the more I studied, the more the true Buddha receded.
His doctrine got buried in mountains of scholasticism, lists and systems of classification, so much so that the meaning of right speech got lost. 
People who follow abhidhamma suffer from an insecurity, the insecurity of a system built on fault lines,
that is bound to collapse any second. Compassion and kindness, hallmarks of the doctrine are swept
aside. They call humans ugly mammals? or say all mammals are ugly?? Anyone who dares to point out the drawbacks of Abhidhamma? and defend the Buddha! Beware! 
You wrote 
"There is other people in this thread more able to explain that. I would need a book on my side to do that"
After all these years, you've been here since June of 2009, if you still need a book to explain? Does that not point to a weakness in the system? It is almost as if Abhidhamma took Buddha's doctrine and turned it upside down, so it came to resemble systems that prevailed in India before Buddha's enlightenment. Hence my insistence on this forum, that nama-rupa should be understood as Buddha taught it.
Rupa is not a typical rigid body but only reflections of rigid bodies that appear in the mind. Physical bodies exist out there.
  • Yet the root of suffering lies in the recreation of these bodies in the deluded mind
In doctrinal parlance it is called Papanca MN 18.
Once lobha, dosha, moha, are removed via Samma Sati (SN 47.42) such recreation of Rupa ends. Such a mind is peaceful. Content of Anuruddha Samyutta is witness to this.
Formlessness in original Buddha's dispensation, is not brought about by a quirky formless samapatti, a term informed by upanisad systems.
Sutta compilers over time, influenced by the teachings of Abhidhamma, misunderstood what Buddha intended by Rupa. I will bring in a sutta to show how the compilers joined two completely different ideas into one sutta, to validate upanishadic formless systems of meditation.
Just as in Upanishadic systems rupa is a physical body, so too in Abhidhamma rupa is a rigid structure, not one of mind's creation.
Regards :candle:
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ontheway »

Those who rejected Pali Tipitaka (Suttanta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka) is heretical, no longer has the right to call themselves as "Theravadin" (sakavadin).

Rather, they belong to the misguided schismatic schools, in this case, Sauntrantika.

It is the Abhidhamma that sets out the True Sasana out from all other schools of thought. Without the Abhidhamma knowledge, one is difficult to gain the correct understanding of important concepts such as Anatta, Punabbhava, Paṭiccasamuppāda, Nāmarupa, Nibbāna, etc. Without these understandings, though claiming to be true "Buddha's follower", it is nothing more than a donkey thinking itself as a horse.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:00 pm Those who rejected Pali Tipitaka (Suttanta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka) is heretical, no longer has the right to call themselves as "Theravadin" (sakavadin).

Rather, they belong to the misguided schismatic schools, in this case, Sauntrantika.

It is the Abhidhamma that sets out the True Sasana out from all other schools of thought. Without the Abhidhamma knowledge, one is difficult to gain the correct understanding of important concepts such as Anatta, Punabbhava, Paṭiccasamuppāda, Nāmarupa, Nibbāna, etc. Without these understandings, though claiming to be true "Buddha's follower", it is nothing more than a donkey thinking itself as a horse.
What about all the ancient monks and nuns who lived in India and had never even heard of the Theravadin Abhidhamma?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:22 pm
Ontheway wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:00 pm Those who rejected Pali Tipitaka (Suttanta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka) is heretical, no longer has the right to call themselves as "Theravadin" (sakavadin).

Rather, they belong to the misguided schismatic schools, in this case, Sauntrantika.

It is the Abhidhamma that sets out the True Sasana out from all other schools of thought. Without the Abhidhamma knowledge, one is difficult to gain the correct understanding of important concepts such as Anatta, Punabbhava, Paṭiccasamuppāda, Nāmarupa, Nibbāna, etc. Without these understandings, though claiming to be true "Buddha's follower", it is nothing more than a donkey thinking itself as a horse.
What about all the ancient monks and nuns who lived in India and had never even heard of the Theravadin Abhidhamma?
All monks in ancient times know Theravadin Abhidhamma at least a bit. Even then they founded their own Abhidharma, adapting from Theravada Abhidhamma.

Only Sauntrantikas reject all forms of Theravada Abhidhamma.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:24 pm
All monks in ancient times know Theravadin Abhidhamma at least a bit. Even they founded their own Abhidharma, adapting from Theravada Abhidhamma.

Only Sauntrantikas reject all forms of Theravada Abhidhamma.
It’s unlikely that Buddhists living in the north and Kashmir had heard of the Dhammasangani, Patthana etc. They probably only knew bits of the Vibangha, the bits they held in common.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:27 pm
Ontheway wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:24 pm
All monks in ancient times know Theravadin Abhidhamma at least a bit. Even they founded their own Abhidharma, adapting from Theravada Abhidhamma.

Only Sauntrantikas reject all forms of Theravada Abhidhamma.
It’s unlikely that Buddhists living in the north and Kashmir had heard of the Dhammasangani, Patthana etc. They probably only knew bits of the Vibangha, the bits they held in common.
That is the "a bit". Still, they aren't as extreme as Sauntrantikas that rejected all Theravada Abhidhamma.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote
It’s unlikely that Buddhists living in the north and Kashmir had heard of the Dhammasangani, Patthana etc.
They are fortunate, those who did not hear of Patthana. With the invention Patthana, Dhamma moved away from Buddha, with a certain abhidhammic solidarity.
You wrote
They probably only knew bits of the Vibangha, the bits they held in common.
Brilliant!
bits held in common did not dispute the first or older layer of suttas, which were
uninfluenced by later abhidhamma. One of those schools is known as a Vibajjavadin school of Buddhism. They interpreted rupa as physical. They rigidified an aspect of the doctrine which was intended to be fluid AKA mental proliferation. MN 18 and suttas in the Samyutta 14, support this.
Systems of meditation changed, attention was diverted to corpses, festering bodies and bloated bodies, instead of bloated and festering thoughts, which was the real problem that Buddhists had to deal with, according to the Buddha.
We all know that suttas that define the first satipatthana as a physical body meditation, are called conjoined suttas,
AKA Piltdown
combining teachings of Buddha with teachings of Abhidhamma. This had disastrous consequences in regard to freedom from suffering, the point of the higher teaching, what I consider abhidhamma, not a collection of classifications and interpretations, that misinterpreted the initial step of suffering, where rupa becomes a solidity, not the fluidity of a thought.
With love and hugs :candle:
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by zerotime »

Pulsar wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:06 pm did not dispute the first or older layer of suttas, which were uninfluenced by later abhidhamma. One of those schools is known as a Vibajjavadin school of Buddhism.
these names were not real "schools". That frame replete of early schools mostly is an scholar creation when they try to follow historical threads showing distinctive positions. No pristine Buddhism was lost due to the inner fights between early buddhist schools and today some people can discover that to rectify 2.500 years. It would be naive.
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Re: what is difference between suttas and Abhidamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:06 pm
Brilliant! bits held in common did not dispute the first or older layer of suttas, which were
uninfluenced by later abhidhamma. One of those schools is known as a Vibajjavadin school of Buddhism. They interpreted rupa as physical. They rigidified an aspect of the doctrine which was intended to be fluid AKA mental proliferation.
The Sarvāstivādins definition of rūpa also included the physical, as did the non-Yogācārin Sautrāntika. I think even the Mahāsāṃghika also defined rūpa, at least in part, as that which is physical/material.
Systems of meditation changed, attention was diverted to corpses, festering bodies and bloated bodies, instead of bloated and festering thoughts, which was the real problem that Buddhists had to deal with, according to the Buddha.
This doesn't seem right. The contemplation of corpses is to aid overcoming sensual desire and to facilitate entry into Jhāna. This can be done via looking at a dead corpse, or it can be done mentally via mental images of a corpse.
We all know that suttas that define the first satipatthana as a physical body meditation, are called conjoined suttas, AKA Piltdowncombining teachings of Buddha with teachings of Abhidhamma. This had disastrous consequences in regard to freedom from suffering, the point of the higher teaching, what I consider abhidhamma, not a collection of classifications and interpretations, that misinterpreted the initial step of suffering, where rupa becomes a solidity, not the fluidity of a thought.
With love and hugs :candle:
This isn't right. Whilst Sujato said MN 10 is a Piltdown sutta he didn't mean it's all wrong. Rather he meant it has been edited and expanded upon from an original version. The original version isn't wrong, and in that version (if you accept Sujato's arguments) the first Satipaṭṭhāna is contemplation of the body by way of body parts. I've attached a pic below for you.
Attachments
Root satipatthana.jpg
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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