the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:50 pm In light of kamma and rebirth it would be better to starve to death than to intentionally kill to eat.
I'd opt for the light of survival instead. :sage:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22389
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:50 pm In light of kamma and rebirth it would be better to starve to death than to intentionally kill to eat.
I'd opt for the light of survival instead. :sage:
The majority of people would.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

thepea,

All of your discussion about meat being food is mostly moot. Most vegetarians don't have any argument with that. Perhaps some vegan-extremists might say that meat is not food and not fit for human consumption, but they are in the minority view.

Meat is food for carnivores and omnivores. There are many vegetarian animals (herbivores, frugivores) that do not eat any meat at all and if they did, it would be very unhealthy for them. There are people who have lived over 100 on a vegetarian diet and also on a non-vegetarian diet. Clearly humans have been able to adapt and eat a well-balanced diet; both those who are vegetarian and those who are not vegetarian.

From the Buddhist pov, it is not about what is food, but is there killing to acquire the food? A Buddhist cannot kill an animal, even to eat food when hungry.
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by SteRo »

thepea wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:21 pm All living beings must ingest life to sustain life. Killing is part of living.
...
Killing is part of life and it’s unavoidable. To hold the view one must not kill is extreme and causes stress which is not freedom.
If one believes that plants live then that may appear "true".
thepea wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:21 pm Eating animal flesh is taking one body and one consciousness, it is no different than swatting a mosquito or eradicating a beetle from a cucumber plant.
I think eating animal flesh (cooked with expertise) is more satisfying.
thepea wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:21 pm Better to see clearly with wisdom and cultivate peace with eating and the killing it takes to sustain the body.
Personal taste, money available, moral beliefs etc may vary. But if it comes to mere survival individuals usually are less picky.
thepea wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:21 pm Be thankful for your daily bread.
Bread is vegan.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:58 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:50 pm In light of kamma and rebirth it would be better to starve to death than to intentionally kill to eat.
I'd opt for the light of survival instead. :sage:
The majority of people would.
That's the wisdom of the majority which some call "common sense". :sage:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:09 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:21 pm All living beings must ingest life to sustain life. Killing is part of living.
...
Killing is part of life and it’s unavoidable. To hold the view one must not kill is extreme and causes stress which is not freedom.
If one believes that plants live then that may appear "true".
Yes, according to Jainism. For Buddhism, plants are one-facultied, but not sentient beings who undergo samsaric rebirth. For Buddhism, one should avoid harming plants as much as possible. For animals, it's an absolute no killing.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22389
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:58 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:57 pm

I'd opt for the light of survival instead. :sage:
The majority of people would.
That's the wisdom of the majority which some call "common sense". :sage:
Common sense can have you believe the world is flat.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

thepea wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:33 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:19 pm That is a very antiquated and recherché usage. You can refer to the typically-eaten section of an apple as "the meat of the apple" as opposed to "the seeds of the apple," but this is an antiquarian usage of the term. We can also say "the meat of the matter" and we're not referring to food at all necessarily.
It is a fact, meat is food.
A vegan does not eat animals. A vegan does eat meat, every living thing consumes meat.
No. You are once again committing an etymological fallacy. This is a fact. Your fact is a non-fact, i.e. a fantasy. I feel no need to entertain your fantasies.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:22 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:58 pm

The majority of people would.
That's the wisdom of the majority which some call "common sense". :sage:
Common sense can have you believe the world is flat.
Not at present but in ancient times. But you are wrong equating "common sense" with belief-conditioned rational thinking exclusively because it is strongly dominated by the instincts inherent in the functioning of the brain. And when it comes to survival your statement "In light of kamma and rebirth it would be better to starve to death than to intentionally kill to eat." is irrelevant which is why I responded "I''d opt for the light of survival instead"
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by cappuccino »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:22 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:11 pm

That's the wisdom of the majority which some call "common sense". :sage:
Common sense can have you believe the world is flat.
Not at present but in ancient times.
the great pyramid is a scale model of the northern hemisphere
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by SteRo »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:49 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:22 pm

Common sense can have you believe the world is flat.
Not at present but in ancient times.
the great pyramid is a scale model of the northern hemisphere
What? Maybe you are willing to eleborate on your statement?
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by cappuccino »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:12 pm What? Maybe you are willing to eleborate on your statement?
UnchartedX
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by thepea »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:33 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:33 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:19 pm That is a very antiquated and recherché usage. You can refer to the typically-eaten section of an apple as "the meat of the apple" as opposed to "the seeds of the apple," but this is an antiquarian usage of the term. We can also say "the meat of the matter" and we're not referring to food at all necessarily.
It is a fact, meat is food.
A vegan does not eat animals. A vegan does eat meat, every living thing consumes meat.
No. You are once again committing an etymological fallacy. This is a fact. Your fact is a non-fact, i.e. a fantasy. I feel no need to entertain your fantasies.
I’m not forcing you to.
I’m simply saying according to definition, meat is food to sustain life.
Thus vegans and vegetarians eat meat, but they do not eat animals and vegans do not use animal products to the best of their ability according to the definition I have read.
Commonly we call our offspring kids, but formally this is untrue. Kids are young goats.
Meat is commonly referred to as animal flesh but the dhamma is not a common practice it is formal and should be studied as such.
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by SteRo »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:15 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:12 pm What? Maybe you are willing to eleborate on your statement?
UnchartedX
Sorry but youtube is blocked.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by cappuccino »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:29 pm Sorry but youtube is blocked.
youtu.be/DMPChWRtCeU?t=765

:quote:
Post Reply