the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Sam Vara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:46 pm
DNS wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:05 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:36 pm This is ridiculous, you reside in a dry desert. What are people to eat in cold climates when crops cannot grow? What if hydro went out in Vegas and the water stopped flowing, that place would be basically inhospitable other than those who can trap the local wildlife.
If Las Vegas ran out of water (which is actually possible, it never rains here), it wouldn't change anything about the agriculture, as we have little to no agriculture. There are planes, trains, automobiles, trucks, and ships now. Everything is shipped in. If we run out of water, I'll become a climate refugee and move elsewhere, but that's because the city can't exist without water, not because of any agriculture issue.

Very few places in the world are completely isolated, it's a global economy and goods and services, including food is traded all over.
Everybody eats meat.
Not true, currently about 5% of the population of the U.S. is vegetarian.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/267074/per ... arian.aspx

It's 22% for the world's population that is vegetarian.
https://dealsonhealth.net/vegetarian-st ... 0necessity.
Vegetables are meat(food).
Certes, but methoght we were talkynge of flessche.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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DNS wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:52 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:46 pm Vegetables are meat(food).
Yes... that’s my point we are discussing an ancient practice well before automation and global shipping.
You would be forced to move or eat what’s available which might include animals depending on climate.
As has been already noted by others, you are using a very archaic use of the term "meat." We don't live in the 1500s, we live in the 21st century and meat refers to animal flesh. This is not making any value judgment, just a statement of fact, that meat refers to animal flesh; beef, pork, etc.

Global trade is not going to end, the entire world engages in trade. One country or village might make product A, another country or village makes product B; there are few if any civilizations that are completely isolated and get all their needs without leaving their village, city, or doing trade with other nations.
This whole teaching is archaic. Why not use archaic terms.
I comprehend that the masses refer to meat as animal flesh but in buddhas time it would seem “meat” or it’s Pali translation was in usage, or perhaps another term. Either way it’s not incorrect to use the word meat to describe vegetables. If there is aversion to this word then that’s something to look at. I’m being very clear in discussion as to what I’m referring to.

Perhaps, but Buddha taught impermanence, everything changes.
So I’m saying back 2500 yrs ago there were no trucking or planes or shipping. People made do with what was available and animal flesh is a huge part of this globally, as they can turn grasses and other inedible things to humans and convert energy from this. We then consume this energy and the cycle of life continues.
There is no issue with this and it’s very sustainable as is seen globally.
Why must processing animals into food be vilified. It’s natural and van be done in non destructive cruel ways.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

thepea wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:12 pmthis is also in the bible
It's in an obscure translation from the 1500s. The King James says "food" instead of "meat." You are using this etymological fallacy to forward a highly questionable "meaty" agenda.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:02 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:46 pm
DNS wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:05 pm

If Las Vegas ran out of water (which is actually possible, it never rains here), it wouldn't change anything about the agriculture, as we have little to no agriculture. There are planes, trains, automobiles, trucks, and ships now. Everything is shipped in. If we run out of water, I'll become a climate refugee and move elsewhere, but that's because the city can't exist without water, not because of any agriculture issue.

Very few places in the world are completely isolated, it's a global economy and goods and services, including food is traded all over.



Not true, currently about 5% of the population of the U.S. is vegetarian.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/267074/per ... arian.aspx

It's 22% for the world's population that is vegetarian.
https://dealsonhealth.net/vegetarian-st ... 0necessity.
Vegetables are meat(food).
Certes, but methoght we were talkynge of flessche.
Vegetables have flesh also. Vegetables are meat, fruits are meat.
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Sam Vara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:02 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:46 pm
Vegetables are meat(food).
Certes, but methoght we were talkynge of flessche.
Vegetables have flesh also. Vegetables are meat, fruits are meat.
Ah, that's why I can never find what I want in the supermarket! 8-)
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NotMe
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Dietary habits of India through time:

https://journalofethnicfoods.biomedcent ... 22-00129-4

Excerpt:

Vedic era
Many important texts on medicine, yoga, literature, religion, etc., from the Vedic era, such as Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, Caraka’s Caraka-Saṃhitā, and the Upanishads, have discussed foods and their impact on the human body. The Vedas have emphasized the connection between spirituality and the choice of food without relinquishing the need for taste and health [27]. Recent research throws light on linguistic similarities of food items consumed across cultures making it slightly easier to connect the finer dots of Indian cuisine from the Vedic era [1]. The decline of the Indus Valley Civilization was followed by the Vedic period. During this period, the north-western region of the Indian subcontinent was occupied by Indo-Aryans. Most of the Aryans then were pastoralists. Milk provided for their food and other products like butter and curd.

The Aryans considered food to be a gift from God and a source of strength. In the four Vedas, Rigveda, Samaveda, Yajurveda, and Atharvaveda, there are various mentions of the grains used during those times [38]. Initially, barley was a staple food of most Aryans. Cultivation of other crops such as wheat, sugarcane, and millets followed. Lentils, mainly red, green, and black, were also grown. Later, the Aryans added rice and other cereals to their diet [13].

Sweetcakes called apupa have been mentioned multiple times in the Vedas. Apupa or Malpua (see Fig. 2), as it is called today, was made with barley flour. The batter would be flattened into cakes and fried in ghee. Before serving, the fried cake was dipped in honey. Many variations have developed over time, and malpua is now paired with various condiments. Today, the batter is made with refined wheat flour or semolina flour and milk. Like the Vedic version, the batter is spread into flat cakes and fried in ghee. Instead of honey, the cakes are soaked in sugar syrup flavoured with saffron or jaggery (cane sugar) syrup. They are topped with chopped almonds and pistachios and paired with rabri, a sweet made by boiling milk at low heat with sugar and spices.

Fig. 2
figure 2
Malpua and Rabri: Malpua is an Indian sweet fried pancake, made from a batter of wheat or barley flour. It is fried in ghee and then placed in sugar syrup. https://www.shutterstock.com/image-phot ... 1035620161

Fried barley called dhana was not just eaten as food but was also offered to the gods. Pulverized barley seeds, called saktu, have been mentioned in the Vedas. Sattu, a flour made from ground pulses, is used in many kitchens today, and it may have roots in saktu. A porridge called odana was made by boiling barley in milk. Yet another preparation called karambha had yogurt mixed with barley, and it is still popular in parts of Gujarat.

Animal meat was presumably used by Hindus in what is now Punjab. Cows, goats, buffalo, and bulls were killed for their meat, and slaughterhouses have been mentioned in the texts. The practice of eating horse flesh was introduced by the Aryans, but its consumption did not seem to settle well with the natives. However, there have been accounts of slaughter of cows and bulls for their meat [24]. Meats were mostly roasted in clay ovens or on spits over charcoal. The consumption of meat as a survival strategy can be contrasted with the current debates about meat eating and its consequences [46].

Sesame seeds were important as both food and in rituals. As food, they would be cooked with vegetables, added to bread, or crushed to extract oil. Turmeric, pepper, and mustard seeds were used as flavourings. Various fruits and vegetables are mentioned in the Vedas including the bael fruit (Aegle marmelos), mangoes, dates, lotus stalks and roots, gourds, jujubes, and water chestnuts. These are not very different from the ingredients used in Indian kitchens today.

Alcoholic beverages existed in Vedic times, as suggested by the mention of sura in the Rigveda but disapproved for consumption. The drink has been mentioned only in a few places, and at times, in conjunction with soma. Soma was considered the drink of Gods and an elixir. The plant from which the drink was made has remained a mystery, but historians have speculated candidate plants [34]. It could be a type of millet, called ragi. Ragi is still used to make marua, an intoxicating drink in the Eastern Himalayas. Cannabis could also be the plant referred to in the texts which was used for preparing the soma drink [4]. Yet another suggestion is the fly agaric mushroom, because of its intoxicating effect when consumed [51]. Soma was prepared and offered to gods by Brahmans [17]. It is unclear as to whether or when fermentation took place [19]. There is debate surrounding the effects of soma [7]. While one branch of research views the description of the drink in the Vedas as intoxicating, other researchers argue that it was simply exhilarating, not intoxicating [44].

An important aspect of the social system in India that determined food culture and consumption among Indo-Aryans was the caste system [40] which can be traced back to around 1000 BC. The structural embodiments of the caste system, a legitimised practice of inequity believed to be inherited through one’s parentage and occupation, engendered a sense of purity in the culinary and consumption habits of people. Brahmins, the upper caste priests, often adhered to vegetarian food habits led by the philosophy of sattva. In contrast, Shudras, the lowest group in the caste ladder, engaged in eating animal meat and other kinds of tamasic habits. The possibility of upper caste politics to portray certain kinds of food habits as superior to others could be indeed the case. It is possible that the caste system was strengthened with the help of systemic food demonisation. Unfortunately, the caste system continues to shape food habits even in present times [39].

The descriptions about the culinary culture around 500 BC are not separately dealt with in any treatises as such. Rather, one can find these details in the memoirs of foreign writers and philosophers who visited India during those times. Megasthenes, an ambassador of Alexander and Chinese visitors such as Fa-Hsien and I-Ching, and Xuan Zang, a learned monk from China, have vividly described sociocultural practices including food and drinks [1].

Metta

:anjali:
thepea
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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More to vegans.... how do vegans justify taking the vaccine as it’s tested on animals and contains animal products?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:45 am More to vegans.... how do vegans justify taking the vaccine as it’s tested on animals and contains animal products?
Some do like this:

https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues ... -veganism/
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:59 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:45 am More to vegans.... how do vegans justify taking the vaccine as it’s tested on animals and contains animal products?
Some do like this:

https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues ... -veganism/
Yes but ethical vegans refuse shampoo that is tested on animals yet they are simply to drop their ethics with regards to this vaccine.
There really isn’t valid reason to contort ones ethics.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:48 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:59 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:45 am More to vegans.... how do vegans justify taking the vaccine as it’s tested on animals and contains animal products?
Some do like this:

https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues ... -veganism/
Yes but ethical vegans refuse shampoo that is tested on animals yet they are simply to drop their ethics with regards to this vaccine.
There really isn’t valid reason to contort ones ethics.
From a brief reading, I think the idea is that if people think they are going to die without a vaccine, then the benefits of taking it outweigh the benefits of refraining, as live activists can do more good in the long term.

In more general terms, if a group has values we don't like, our fantasising about them applying those values inconsistently can make us feel better.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:19 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:48 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:59 am

Some do like this:

https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues ... -veganism/
Yes but ethical vegans refuse shampoo that is tested on animals yet they are simply to drop their ethics with regards to this vaccine.
There really isn’t valid reason to contort ones ethics.
From a brief reading, I think the idea is that if people think they are going to die without a vaccine, then the benefits of taking it outweigh the benefits of refraining, as live activists can do more good in the long term.

In more general terms, if a group has values we don't like, our fantasising about them applying those values inconsistently can make us feel better.
I guess it’s concerning with ethical vegans and their careers. Being given the ultimatum to breach their ethics or lose their careers?
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Sam Vara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:26 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:19 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:48 am
Yes but ethical vegans refuse shampoo that is tested on animals yet they are simply to drop their ethics with regards to this vaccine.
There really isn’t valid reason to contort ones ethics.
From a brief reading, I think the idea is that if people think they are going to die without a vaccine, then the benefits of taking it outweigh the benefits of refraining, as live activists can do more good in the long term.

In more general terms, if a group has values we don't like, our fantasising about them applying those values inconsistently can make us feel better.
I guess it’s concerning with ethical vegans and their careers. Being given the ultimatum to breach their ethics or lose their careers?
For those who have such extreme views confronted by such extreme requirements, there would indeed be a dilemma. I'm not sure if there are significant numbers, though.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:14 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:26 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:19 am

From a brief reading, I think the idea is that if people think they are going to die without a vaccine, then the benefits of taking it outweigh the benefits of refraining, as live activists can do more good in the long term.

In more general terms, if a group has values we don't like, our fantasising about them applying those values inconsistently can make us feel better.
I guess it’s concerning with ethical vegans and their careers. Being given the ultimatum to breach their ethics or lose their careers?
For those who have such extreme views confronted by such extreme requirements, there would indeed be a dilemma. I'm not sure if there are significant numbers, though.
Are you saying ethical vegans are extreme view?
Or the political requirement to vaccinate is extreme?
Or both?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:20 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:14 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:26 am

I guess it’s concerning with ethical vegans and their careers. Being given the ultimatum to breach their ethics or lose their careers?
For those who have such extreme views confronted by such extreme requirements, there would indeed be a dilemma. I'm not sure if there are significant numbers, though.
Are you saying ethical vegans are extreme view?
Or the political requirement to vaccinate is extreme?
Or both?
Both, in that the numbers of people that would not under any conceivable circumstance accept a product tested on animals, and who live where there is an absolute requirement to be vaccinated, is likely to be statistically insignificant.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:52 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:20 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:14 am

For those who have such extreme views confronted by such extreme requirements, there would indeed be a dilemma. I'm not sure if there are significant numbers, though.
Are you saying ethical vegans are extreme view?
Or the political requirement to vaccinate is extreme?
Or both?
Both, in that the numbers of people that would not under any conceivable circumstance accept a product tested on animals, and who live where there is an absolute requirement to be vaccinated, is likely to be statistically insignificant.
Statistically insignificant?
What do you mean by that?
Are you saying it’s acceptable to ignore or disrespect the dietary needs of statistically insignificant?
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