the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by santa100 »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 2:55 am
Sn 12.63 wrote:In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded. When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world." (Non returner)
Just a gentle reminder that ref. abbreviations are case-sensitive. "Sn" (or "Snp") point to the Sutta Nipata, while "SN" points to the Samyutta Nikaya.
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by asahi »

If monks going for almsround and demanding a vegetarian foods , that would cause wrong impressions and many confusions or troubles for lay people . Those make offerings to monks not necessary are buddhist . If what they have and offerable is only meats , then chance of making offering to monks is taken off .
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Meggo
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by Meggo »

knotting wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:24 pm
Meggo wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:34 pmSo you eat what keeps you healthy because you have no options.
Why would the difficulty of life in ancient India justify the eating of meat (if it is immoral and/or produces bad kamma)? Aren't the monks supposed to be held to the highest possible ethical standard?
The highest ethical standard is whatever will achieve enlightenment for the person. If the workings of kamma would be such that killing and raping in war would lead to enlightenment than Buddha would have recommended that. So basically if eating meat means higher likelyhood of being able to meditate all day to achieve that goal , because being picky about food in ancient times could mean all thorts of drawbacks, than eating meat it is. Doesn't mean that doing that is optimal it means it is optimal if there is no better solution relative to the circumstances which are changing all the time.
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by knotting »

santa100 wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:45 am Are you a Jains follower? If not, then it doesn't matter what the Jains believe in. What matters is those Buddhists who say "it is immoral to purchase meat" to provide suttas references and backup literatures that explicitly said so. I already provided you passage in MN 55 where the Buddha stated the opposite. But you're free to provide any suttas and/or references that say the opposite to MN 55.
We're actually in agreement. My questions were hypothetical, I was trying to explore the logical consequences of claiming that 'purchasing meat is immoral'. For those who make such a claim, it seems that they would also have to believe that Mahavira is morally superior to the Buddha (which points out the wrong view of the original premise).
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Sam Vara
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by Sam Vara »

knotting wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:14 am
santa100 wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:45 am Are you a Jains follower? If not, then it doesn't matter what the Jains believe in. What matters is those Buddhists who say "it is immoral to purchase meat" to provide suttas references and backup literatures that explicitly said so. I already provided you passage in MN 55 where the Buddha stated the opposite. But you're free to provide any suttas and/or references that say the opposite to MN 55.
We're actually in agreement. My questions were hypothetical, I was trying to explore the logical consequences of claiming that 'purchasing meat is immoral'. For those who make such a claim, it seems that they would also have to believe that Mahavira is morally superior to the Buddha
Not necessarily. One might hold that purchasing meat today is immoral because of the damage meat production does to the planet, whereas this was not the case 2600 years ago.
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by justindesilva »

TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:41 pm
knotting wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:38 am

If the eating of meat (within the bounds discussed in MN 55) was of moral/kammic significance, then why did the Buddha not simply say, 'the Sangha should abstain from meat'?
Exactly. And there is the answer. It's not of karmic significance, as long as you are a certain degree removed from the killing. If he knew it was bad kamma at all he woulda said so for the benefit of the laity.
Mn 55 or jeevaka sutta is exposed in India at a time when marketing of meat were either limited domestically or is done by hunters for a living unlike now where poultry and butchring is done at large scale. When it was said meat for meals are wrong if seen, heard or suspected it could be a kill specifically for the meal . Hence intention of killing is involved and could be seen heard or suspected . How can we interpret these 3 instances in modern farming marketry.
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by knotting »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:34 am Not necessarily. One might hold that purchasing meat today is immoral because of the damage meat production does to the planet, whereas this was not the case 2600 years ago.
You could make this argument about nearly any activity in the modern world. For instance, if you drive to the park, that would be immoral due to the unnecessary exhaust emissions. And when it comes to meat, it's not always unnecessary - some people find it very difficult to thrive on plant nutrients, which are generally less bioavailable than animal nutrients.
Last edited by knotting on Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by Sam Vara »

knotting wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:46 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:34 am Not necessarily. One might hold that purchasing meat today is immoral because of the damage meat production does to the planet, whereas this was not the case 2600 years ago.
You could make this argument about nearly any activity in the modern world. For instance, if you drive to the park, that would be immoral due to the unnecessary exhaust emissions. And when it comes to meat, it's not always unnecessary - some people find it very difficult to thrive on plant nutrients, which are generally less bioavailable than animal nutrients.

Consequentialist ethics lead to confusion and hypocrisy, which is probably why the Buddha emphasized a simple system of virtue ethics.
I can't see any reason why consequentialist ethics are more prone to confusion and hypocrisy than virtue ethics.
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by DNS »

knotting wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:14 am
santa100 wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:45 am Are you a Jains follower? If not, then it doesn't matter what the Jains believe in. What matters is those Buddhists who say "it is immoral to purchase meat" to provide suttas references and backup literatures that explicitly said so. I already provided you passage in MN 55 where the Buddha stated the opposite. But you're free to provide any suttas and/or references that say the opposite to MN 55.
We're actually in agreement. My questions were hypothetical, I was trying to explore the logical consequences of claiming that 'purchasing meat is immoral'. For those who make such a claim, it seems that they would also have to believe that Mahavira is morally superior to the Buddha (which points out the wrong view of the original premise).
In my previous post, I mentioned that according to Theravada it is okay to purchase meat and consume it. To expand on that post, I should add that I don't get my knowledge and views from Theravada alone. I'm vegetarian (mostly vegan) and consider other things, including general ethics and philosophy, supply-demand direct connection, utilitarianism, ahimsa, doing the least harm, etc. Yes, you can consume meat according to Theravada, but as Bhante Sujato has noted:

"Sure, you can argue that eating meat is allowable. You can get away with it. That doesn’t mean that it’s a good thing. What if we ask, not what can I get away with, but what can I aspire to?"
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by asahi »

DNS wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:44 pm "Sure, you can argue that eating meat is allowable. You can get away with it. That doesn’t mean that it’s a good thing. What if we ask, not what can I get away with, but what can I aspire to?"
This question probably should be directed to all those on Pindapata monastics . What can them aspire to ?!
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DNS
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by DNS »

asahi wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:51 pm
DNS wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:44 pm "Sure, you can argue that eating meat is allowable. You can get away with it. That doesn’t mean that it’s a good thing. What if we ask, not what can I get away with, but what can I aspire to?"
This question probably should be directed to all those on Pindapata monastics . What can them aspire to ?!
No, they receive food-dana in their bowl and graciously accept it. The question is for laypeople, who have a choice when they go grocery shopping.
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:56 pm The question is for laypeople, who have a choice when they go grocery shopping.
Humans eat meat
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by DNS »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:59 pm
DNS wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:56 pm The question is for laypeople, who have a choice when they go grocery shopping.
Humans eat meat
Yes, they do, but they don't have to. One can have a very nutritious vegetarian / vegan diet with no meat. It's up to each person what they do, but it is possible to get all the nutrients without meat or to reduce one's meat consumption, if one wishes to and thereby reducing demand, which directly (contrary to common assumption) reduces supply and slaughterhouse kills.
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:05 pm
cappuccino wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:59 pm Humans eat meat
Yes, they do, but they don't have to.
Animals eat meat too
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confusedlayman
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Re: Does eating meat generate bad karma?

Post by confusedlayman »

no intention, no karma

when you buy meat in shop, u buy non living flesh. is like buying a wood or tissue paper... just flesh with cells ...

only butcher gains bad karma. he needs to kill to sell to common folks.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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